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	<title>Comments on: Once More: Crunchy Cons</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: johnsavage</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8541</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8541</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;"To the extent that they are what he says they are, they were already looking to Kirk, Berry and others before Rod came along to document what they were doing, or they were practicing the kind of conservatism of place, virtue and proportion that Rod was describing in his book without articulating what they were doing."&lt;/i&gt;

That's a fair point. I suppose I just don't see that it distinguishes crunchy cons from any other sort of "crunchies". To me, practicing "conservatism of place" and "proportion" is a necessary condition to be a real conservative, but not a sufficient condition. And as regards "virtue", crunchies of all stripes try to practice it, but often define it quite liberally. If not for his pro-life and traditional-marriage stance, can we assume Rod would self-identify as a conservative?

As for the emphasis on "reconciliation", I think the comments section of Rod's post on this topic essentially proves my point. The general tone, which Rod also partakes of (and is influenced by): "We don't need people like John Savage because they want everything to be 'polarized' (Franklin Evans), disrupt the 'common ground' (naturalmom), etc." The focus of the criticism of me, and I'm no longer surprised these days, was not that my views were wrong; it was that I was being mean, polarizing, or intolerant of the way that Rod called himself a conservative while arguably not measuring up to a standard I was setting.

Whereas I thought much of the rationale for even having a crunchy conservative movement was that American culture was so degraded that it was about time to put up more fences and walls to separate ourselves from corrupting influences. My understanding was that we were to separate from the leftist-dominated society and media, which would certainly preclude "reconciliation" with the Left. We were to &lt;i&gt;agree&lt;/i&gt; with a certain type of leftist &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; on the idea of separating from each other. "Tolerance" in any sort of liberal sense was not to be a crunchy conservative value, as I understood things. Leftists are in the habit of preaching "tolerance", and then stabbing conservatives in the back. Rod seems to be losing sight of that fact. And no one can really tell him he is threatening to become a heretic to crunchy conservatism by doing so -- it's viewed as &lt;i&gt;his movement&lt;/i&gt;. Those would be my main complaints about the direction that crunchy conservatism is going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;To the extent that they are what he says they are, they were already looking to Kirk, Berry and others before Rod came along to document what they were doing, or they were practicing the kind of conservatism of place, virtue and proportion that Rod was describing in his book without articulating what they were doing.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s a fair point. I suppose I just don&#8217;t see that it distinguishes crunchy cons from any other sort of &#8220;crunchies&#8221;. To me, practicing &#8220;conservatism of place&#8221; and &#8220;proportion&#8221; is a necessary condition to be a real conservative, but not a sufficient condition. And as regards &#8220;virtue&#8221;, crunchies of all stripes try to practice it, but often define it quite liberally. If not for his pro-life and traditional-marriage stance, can we assume Rod would self-identify as a conservative?</p>
<p>As for the emphasis on &#8220;reconciliation&#8221;, I think the comments section of Rod&#8217;s post on this topic essentially proves my point. The general tone, which Rod also partakes of (and is influenced by): &#8220;We don&#8217;t need people like John Savage because they want everything to be &#8216;polarized&#8217; (Franklin Evans), disrupt the &#8216;common ground&#8217; (naturalmom), etc.&#8221; The focus of the criticism of me, and I&#8217;m no longer surprised these days, was not that my views were wrong; it was that I was being mean, polarizing, or intolerant of the way that Rod called himself a conservative while arguably not measuring up to a standard I was setting.</p>
<p>Whereas I thought much of the rationale for even having a crunchy conservative movement was that American culture was so degraded that it was about time to put up more fences and walls to separate ourselves from corrupting influences. My understanding was that we were to separate from the leftist-dominated society and media, which would certainly preclude &#8220;reconciliation&#8221; with the Left. We were to <i>agree</i> with a certain type of leftist <i>only</i> on the idea of separating from each other. &#8220;Tolerance&#8221; in any sort of liberal sense was not to be a crunchy conservative value, as I understood things. Leftists are in the habit of preaching &#8220;tolerance&#8221;, and then stabbing conservatives in the back. Rod seems to be losing sight of that fact. And no one can really tell him he is threatening to become a heretic to crunchy conservatism by doing so &#8212; it&#8217;s viewed as <i>his movement</i>. Those would be my main complaints about the direction that crunchy conservatism is going.
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		<title>by: Zarathustra</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8482</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8482</guid>
					<description>'Dreher is also in a fit of indignation at his blog over what he’s calling “Ron Paul’s Racist Kook Past.”'

And yet, Saint Obama's &lt;i&gt;current and completely unabashed&lt;/i&gt; membership in a black nationalist church is treated as a non-story by the "news" media. I only wish I could say that this is surprising, but nevertheless, it's still absolutely sickening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Dreher is also in a fit of indignation at his blog over what he’s calling “Ron Paul’s Racist Kook Past.”&#8217;</p>
<p>And yet, Saint Obama&#8217;s <i>current and completely unabashed</i> membership in a black nationalist church is treated as a non-story by the &#8220;news&#8221; media. I only wish I could say that this is surprising, but nevertheless, it&#8217;s still absolutely sickening.
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		<title>by: Anthony King</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8477</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8477</guid>
					<description>Dreher is also in a fit of indignation at his blog over what he's calling "Ron Paul's Racist Kook Past."  I think on the one hand you have to understand the guy's an editor at a major mainstream newspaper.  He's circumscribed by the orthodoxies of the day and can't, for instance, link to the League of the South webpage on his blog or he'd be run out of his office lickety-split.  One the other hand, I don't think he has to hold back much at all--if any--of his true self to conform because he's a fairly mainstream thinker who happens to document and advocate for a niche group of conservatives.  Savage's points miss the mark and many are unfair, Dreher's fault isn't that a less than adequately conservatism but rather a too conventional optimism that too easily finds something promising on the political horizon.  I get the feeling he really wants to support someone who he shares some of his politics and is politically viable, which is why he's willing to overlook so many of Huckabee's faults. To be fair, at his best Dreher embraces the more realistic view of St. Benedict (head to hills and wait out the barbarians).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dreher is also in a fit of indignation at his blog over what he&#8217;s calling &#8220;Ron Paul&#8217;s Racist Kook Past.&#8221;  I think on the one hand you have to understand the guy&#8217;s an editor at a major mainstream newspaper.  He&#8217;s circumscribed by the orthodoxies of the day and can&#8217;t, for instance, link to the League of the South webpage on his blog or he&#8217;d be run out of his office lickety-split.  One the other hand, I don&#8217;t think he has to hold back much at all&#8211;if any&#8211;of his true self to conform because he&#8217;s a fairly mainstream thinker who happens to document and advocate for a niche group of conservatives.  Savage&#8217;s points miss the mark and many are unfair, Dreher&#8217;s fault isn&#8217;t that a less than adequately conservatism but rather a too conventional optimism that too easily finds something promising on the political horizon.  I get the feeling he really wants to support someone who he shares some of his politics and is politically viable, which is why he&#8217;s willing to overlook so many of Huckabee&#8217;s faults. To be fair, at his best Dreher embraces the more realistic view of St. Benedict (head to hills and wait out the barbarians).
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		<title>by: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8476</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8476</guid>
					<description>I thought Lawrence Auster had cornered the market on "traditionalist conservatism", and he &lt;a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009608.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;doesn't&lt;/a&gt; think &lt;a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009582.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;much&lt;/a&gt; of Dreher. Auster also tangled with John Savage &lt;a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009584.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Lawrence Auster had cornered the market on &#8220;traditionalist conservatism&#8221;, and he <a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009608.html" rel="nofollow">doesn&#8217;t</a> think <a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009582.html" rel="nofollow">much</a> of Dreher. Auster also tangled with John Savage <a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009584.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.
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		<title>by: Koz</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8475</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2008/01/09/once-more-crunchy-cons/#comment-8475</guid>
					<description>Savage's complaints are a result of the fact that, imo, crunchy conservatism is interesting, even profound, as a cultural phenomenon but very weak as an agenda.

Since you quoted Brooks, compare it to Boboism.  Basically, we ought to be able to perceive that Bobos are a real cultural fact while still being free to judge them either well or ill.  Rod goes too far down the advocacy route.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Savage&#8217;s complaints are a result of the fact that, imo, crunchy conservatism is interesting, even profound, as a cultural phenomenon but very weak as an agenda.</p>
<p>Since you quoted Brooks, compare it to Boboism.  Basically, we ought to be able to perceive that Bobos are a real cultural fact while still being free to judge them either well or ill.  Rod goes too far down the advocacy route.
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