And no, I’m not convinced by arguments that our intervention in WWI brought about WWII; our role, other than urging France and Britain to mitigate their vengeance, was fairly minor. ~Megan McArdle
It was a minor role, if deciding the outcome of the war was minor. Here’s the thing: intervening in WWI was fundamentally a terrible mistake because it was not America’s fight and our involvement served no national interest. It was not wrong primarily because it contributed directly to the creation of the awful post-war settlement and the consequences of that settlement, though it did do that by providing the Allies with the needed manpower to end the war on terms unfavourable to the Central Powers, but because we had no business being in that war. The consequences of our entry into WWI being what they were, you would have thought that later administrations would not make the same mistakes (no luck there), but it was possible to know that intervention in WWI was wrong in 1917 (and the vast majority of Americans opposed entering the war). With WWII, once the Japanese attacked and Germany declared war staying out of the war was no longer possible (obviously), which is why Roosevelt’s earlier policies that drew us into the war are so damning of his administration. As in WWI, the wars in Asia and Europe were not our fights, but Washington saw to it that they became so.
McArdle continues later:
Libertarians should be inherently more suspicious of the American government’s ability to make things better than other groups–but by the same token, it seems to me that they should be inherently more suspicious of repulsive states such as the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.
All right, be suspicious. How being more suspicious of Saddam Hussein would lead someone–allegedly on the basis of libertarian principles–to endorse a war of aggression is simply beyond me. There’s suspicion, and then there’s irrational paranoia. The idea that Hussein’s regime plausibly posed a threat to this country was fantastical. The fact that a lot of people shared this fantasy did not make it any more reasonable. In any case, how do you go from being suspicious of a regime to advocating aggression? Isn’t the principle of non-aggression supposed to be at the core of libertarianism? Or has that, too, now ceased to be trendy?
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November 28th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Leonard
Your question is easy enough to answer. Non-aggression does not apply against aggressors. You can shoot a thief, or a would-be slaver. You can also aggress against aggressors on the behalf of third parties. I.e. a cop who is otherwise uninvolved may use deadly force to stop a person who is attempting to rob or enslave a third party. None of these ideas is particularly controversial, among libertarians. Or, for that matter, among most normal people, either.
Where it gets complicated (and there is no evident agreement among libertarians), is in how retaliatory or defensive force applies to distant injustices. Saddam’s regime did pose a huge threat to life and liberty — to many Iraqis, and maybe to some of the neighboring people. But it did not to us.
So, McArdle is right in that libertarians should abhor a state like Saddam’s more than moderates might.
But as to what to do about that… well, that’s where the divide is. The dumber libertarians (dumber IMO), decided to support the state on this one. They’d be greeted as liberators! (hook, line, sinker.) The smarter libertarians will tell you that war is the health of the state, and also, that state-building is a fraught enterprise. Just because you eliminate a regime, even a bad one, does not mean you can do any better. Meanwhile, we always lose liberty when at war. (We turned out to be right thus far.)
Note that non-aggression in the Westphalian sense (non-aggression among states), and non-aggression in the libertarian sense (among individuals), are separate things. Whenever a state aggresses against its subjects (and they all do, at least a little), this divide arises at least in theory.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Leonard
Incidentally I agree w/ you completely re: WWI and WWII.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
TGGP
I discuss the folly of WW1 and defend the reputation of “America First”ers during WW2 here.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
James Kabala
I disgree with your opinion about World War Two. I don’t believe that we should go picking fights in every small nation (like Iraq or Iran) where horrible things are going on, but I do believe that there are extreme situations (of which World War II, especially in Europe, and the Cold War are examples, in my opinion) in which the common interest of whether Western civilization survives or collapses trumps purely national interest. Not to poach on your territory, but isn’t your view the view that prevailed in the years after 1453? Since it wasn’t in the direct national interest of the Western European nations to attempt to overturn the Ottoman conquests, they failed to do so. What do you think they should have done? (That isn’t meant as a snotty question; I’m genuinely curious if and how you would distinguish the two situations.)
November 28th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Daniel Larison
The western Europeans failed to overturn the Ottoman conquests, despite repeated attempts at doing so, in large part because they kept losing battles to the Ottomans. It wasn’t as if they didn’t keep trying to push back the Turks–they didn’t have the military means to do so. I think the Europeans should have stopped waging their internecine and then religious wars and put up a united front against the Ottomans. The great error was Francis I’s in making an anti-Habsburg alliance with the Ottomans (he lost at Pavia anyway–serves him right). However, that’s easy for me to say.
If the West’s suicide in 1914-18 didn’t merit our intervention, and I don’t think it did, what is really any different about WWII?
November 28th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
James Kabala
I guess I was thinking of the period immediately after 1453 and embarrassing incidents such as Pius II’s ludicrously failed crusade, rather than the losses (and some great successes, like Lepanto and Vienna) that occurred decades or even centuries later.
World War I was different in neither side was unambiguously in the right. I think the Allies had a better case on the whole, especially after the invasion of Belgium, but the fact that the Serbian government probably had been aware of Princip’s plans makes me have sympathy for the Central Powers as well (despite the genocidal presence of the Ottomans on their side). Of course, in a way this was true of World War II also after monstrous Germany invaded the equally monstrous U.S.S.R, but there was still a clearly innocent party fighting on the Allied side (Britain, of course) and unnumerable crushed innocent parties under Hitler’s thumb, which was a good deal worse than being under Kaiser Wilhelm’s thumb. Even from a purely national interest standpoint, I can’t imagine that all of Europe under a genocidal monster would have been something the U.S. could have ignored in the long run, so why not get the fight over with as soon as possible?
November 28th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Zarathustra
Of course, in a way this was true of World War II also after monstrous Germany invaded the equally monstrous U.S.S.R, but there was still a clearly innocent party fighting on the Allied side (Britain, of course) […]
I have a rather difficult time reconciling the circa 1939 U.K.’s enslavement of 20% of humanity with this supposed “innocence.” There was nothing “innocent” about the U.K. and France carving up almost half the world among them; why should we banish Hitler to the lowest levels of Hell for occupying Bohemia and Poland yet ignore the far more hellish British occupation of India or that of France in Indochina?
Patrick Buchanan was absolutely right in 1999 in “A Republic, not an Empire” and he is still correct today. We should have simply allowed the European and Asian imperial powers to bleed each other white for around a decade; this would have saved the lives of 425,000 American young men and, more importantly, the
U.S. would have avoided the exhausting forty year standoff with the Soviets.
Even from a purely national interest standpoint, I can’t imagine that all of Europe under a genocidal monster would have been something the U.S. could have ignored in the long run, so why not get the fight over with as soon as possible?
Whether it would have been against the national interest isn’t relevant as it wasn’t going to happen anyway - Germany lacked the massive petroleum reserves it needed to project power deep into the USSR on a long term basis and it was inevitable that there would be some contraction of the eastern front regardless of whether America would have entered the war. It would have also been nigh impossible to overrun Britain with (what was left of) the surface fleet of the Kriegsmarine bottled up in the Baltic Sea for the duration of the war. The most likely end state of a Second World War without American involvement would have been a continental Europe split between Moscow and Berlin and an independent Britain, which, to be honest, doesn’t strike me as being that terrible. The Thousand Year Reich and the Great Worker’s Paradise could have fought the Cold War against each other, with America returning to its traditional policy of non-intervention.
November 28th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Zarathustra
TGGP’s link doesn’t seem to work, so here’s my attempt to fix it:
What was so bad about Charles Lindbergh?
November 28th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
James Kabala
“I have a rather difficult time reconciling the circa 1939 U.K.’s enslavement of 20% of humanity with this supposed ‘innocence.’ There was nothing ‘innocent’ about the U.K. and France carving up almost half the world among them; why should we banish Hitler to the lowest levels of Hell for occupying Bohemia and Poland yet ignore the far more hellish British occupation of India or that of France in Indochina?”
I don’t mean Britain was innocent in every way; I mean that it was clearly on the right side in this war. How is your argument different from the arguments used to excuse Sherman’s march? (I would assume you oppose the march, and Mr. Larison certainly does.) “Who cares if innocent Southerners had their houses burned down and their crops destroyed? They weren’t really innocent if they owned slaves!” I might also mention that the generation that endured the bombing of Britain was the same generation that ultimately ended the Empire, although, of course, no one could have foreseen this at the time and it was certainly not the policy of Churchill himself.
Furthermore, while I definitely would have been a Little Englander had I been a Victorian Briton, some good things did come out of the British Empire - the end of the Atlantic slave trade (albeit after a lengthy period in which Britain was instead one of the trade’s worst malefactors), a crackdown on barbaric Hindu practices like suttee, the spread of Christianity to Africa (as a Catholic, I have to give even more credit to France, Spain, and Portugal in this regard), Westminster as “the mother of parliaments,” etc. I am unaware of anything good that come of Third Reich or that possibly could have come out of it even if it actually had lasted a thousand years.
November 28th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
James Kabala
Typo-free version of last sentence: “I am unaware of anything good that came out of the Third Reich or that possibly could have come out of it even if it actually had lasted a thousand years.”
November 28th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Zarathustra
I don’t mean Britain was innocent in every way; I mean that it was clearly on the right side in this war. How is your argument different from the arguments used to excuse Sherman’s march? (I would assume you oppose the march, and Mr. Larison certainly does.) “Who cares if innocent Southerners had their houses burned down and their crops destroyed? They weren’t really innocent if they owned slaves!”
Well, no, the occupation of India and much of the East African rift valley does not in any way morally justify the Blitz or more generally the whole German war effort, just as the presence of slavery in the Southern states didn’t obviate the evil of Gen. Sherman’s march, and I apologize if my comment gave the impression that I felt that way. However, the existence of the “Empire upon which the Sun never sets” does problematize the standard narrative of an almost preternaturally evil Germany prepared to carry out world conquest fighting against the plucky little islanders of Great Britain who merely wanted tend to their gardens.
For what it’s worth, had I been a foreigner in 1861 I wouldn’t exactly have jumped to aid the Confederate cause, just as I would have been reluctant to assist the UK in 1939.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
nyx
Just to clarify, though I have no strong opinion on the debate, sutee in India was practised by a small elite, mostly the upper castes in only certain regions of India (Rajasthan and Bengal, specifically, and the East India company’s reign began in Bengal) and the company for the longest time vaccilated between banning it and regulating it for it and banned it only after getting religious reformers like Roy to state that Sati was an abberation and was not mentioned anywhere in Hindu texts (Note that they did not say that it was against Christian ideals). Second, the officials in the East India company were by no means religious and were nominal christians. They were highly influenced by utilatariansm and they were responsible for the revival of Hinduism in the early 19th century. Third, the British were responsible indirectly for millions of dead Indians, especially in the Bengal Famine during World War 2. This is just to state that the British in India were neither strong christians nor were there especially efficient colonists though they did help create the states of India and Pakistan (instead of several small tiny states).
November 28th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
nyx
Apologies for being pedantic. I took a course on South Asia this year and our professor drilled it into us.