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	<title>Comments on: We Hold These Truths To Be Self-Indulgent?</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Roach</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7889</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7889</guid>
					<description>To say that the rations will still make it there through Iraq ignores that we have a lot of troops near Mosul and Anbar and the north for whom the long supply line through southern Iraq is a major hassle and a dangerous troops.  To avoid that trip is very valuable and to just pretend it's not a problem is stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To say that the rations will still make it there through Iraq ignores that we have a lot of troops near Mosul and Anbar and the north for whom the long supply line through southern Iraq is a major hassle and a dangerous troops.  To avoid that trip is very valuable and to just pretend it&#8217;s not a problem is stupid.
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		<title>by: Zarathustra</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7885</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7885</guid>
					<description>"Seven years ago, Ankara threw the same fit, even though it did not have as much leverage as it does now. In another seven years, it will be the same story–important strategic ally must not be alienated, etc."

Along these lines, Senate Minority Leader McConnell &lt;a href="http://www.aina.org/news/20071015103745.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;let the cat of out the bag today&lt;/a&gt; and explicitly stated that Congress should &lt;b&gt;never&lt;/b&gt; pass this resolution at &lt;b&gt;any&lt;/b&gt; time, thus confirming that the GOP company line of the past two weeks, that this resolution will "starve our troops," was little more than the cheap drivel that we always knew it was. 

In any case, a 12-15% longer trip from the East Coast to Iraq, while not an insignificant trifle that can be lightly dismissed outright, won't lead to a single soldier going without his rations. (Somehow we manage to provision the AFB at Diego Garcia) That an overwhelming majority of the GOP activist base seemingly bought into this fetid nonsense wholeheartedly says something depressing about the modern state of the conservative movement in particular, and modern politics in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Seven years ago, Ankara threw the same fit, even though it did not have as much leverage as it does now. In another seven years, it will be the same story–important strategic ally must not be alienated, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>Along these lines, Senate Minority Leader McConnell <a href="http://www.aina.org/news/20071015103745.htm" rel="nofollow">let the cat of out the bag today</a> and explicitly stated that Congress should <b>never</b> pass this resolution at <b>any</b> time, thus confirming that the GOP company line of the past two weeks, that this resolution will &#8220;starve our troops,&#8221; was little more than the cheap drivel that we always knew it was. </p>
<p>In any case, a 12-15% longer trip from the East Coast to Iraq, while not an insignificant trifle that can be lightly dismissed outright, won&#8217;t lead to a single soldier going without his rations. (Somehow we manage to provision the AFB at Diego Garcia) That an overwhelming majority of the GOP activist base seemingly bought into this fetid nonsense wholeheartedly says something depressing about the modern state of the conservative movement in particular, and modern politics in general.
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		<title>by: Roach</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7884</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7884</guid>
					<description>Be that as it may, we need them, they know it, and it behooves us to play nice.  I also as a general matter don't like the idea of the US or any other government getting into the historical judgment business. It seems an exercise in vanity.  The real hypocricy is not this resolution--which is a dumb idea in my view--but that we take opinions on everything from Poles putting crosses up at Auschwitz to the Sudeten Germans, but somehow we ignore the Armenians for the same reasons we should probably not make too big of a stink about the internal affairs of many other nations, including the Burmas and Israels of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Be that as it may, we need them, they know it, and it behooves us to play nice.  I also as a general matter don&#8217;t like the idea of the US or any other government getting into the historical judgment business. It seems an exercise in vanity.  The real hypocricy is not this resolution&#8211;which is a dumb idea in my view&#8211;but that we take opinions on everything from Poles putting crosses up at Auschwitz to the Sudeten Germans, but somehow we ignore the Armenians for the same reasons we should probably not make too big of a stink about the internal affairs of many other nations, including the Burmas and Israels of the world.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7882</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7882</guid>
					<description>It seems to me that it is the Turks who are threatening concrete measures against us in wartime.  Surely, it is their (frankly irrational)behaviour that deserves the overwhelming bulk of criticism, rather than the symbolic resolution calling on the President to acknowledge something obvious. Allies shouldn't be in the business of threatening to cut off supply lines in wartime, but that is what Turkey is talking about doing.    

It also seems to me that the timing is never going to be considered good enough to make this statement.  Seven years ago, Ankara threw the same fit, even though it did not have as much leverage as it does now.  In another seven years, it will be the same story--important strategic ally must not be alienated, etc.  I have been generally very sympathetic to Turkey's real concerns about security, the PKK and the war.  We should work with Turkey on those real security issues, and should have heeded their warnings about the war.  That is what proper realism based on tangible interests dictates.  It does not require us to participate in a denialist lie for the sake of keeping up appearances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that it is the Turks who are threatening concrete measures against us in wartime.  Surely, it is their (frankly irrational)behaviour that deserves the overwhelming bulk of criticism, rather than the symbolic resolution calling on the President to acknowledge something obvious. Allies shouldn&#8217;t be in the business of threatening to cut off supply lines in wartime, but that is what Turkey is talking about doing.    </p>
<p>It also seems to me that the timing is never going to be considered good enough to make this statement.  Seven years ago, Ankara threw the same fit, even though it did not have as much leverage as it does now.  In another seven years, it will be the same story&#8211;important strategic ally must not be alienated, etc.  I have been generally very sympathetic to Turkey&#8217;s real concerns about security, the PKK and the war.  We should work with Turkey on those real security issues, and should have heeded their warnings about the war.  That is what proper realism based on tangible interests dictates.  It does not require us to participate in a denialist lie for the sake of keeping up appearances.
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		<title>by: Roach</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7881</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/10/18/we-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-indulgent/#comment-7881</guid>
					<description>Of course, I doubt Fallows would say it's not wrong to lecture Germany, Poland, and their neighbors on what their ancestors did 60 years ago.

That said, it is a bad idea to get the US Congress in the contentious historical debate subject.  Do we really wan them dispensing favor and abuse on every country on earth and its historical record.  And it is also a bad idea to get them into this when we have troops on the field dependent on Turkey.  I think the practical consequences are simply too real for our troops in the field.  There is no reason to do this to allys when we're at war.  If we could call Stalin "Uncle Joe," surely we can shut our traps about the Armenians, at least at the congressional level and at least for now.  

The "it's the right thing to do" argument sounds like the kind of idealist clap-trap we usually hear from George Bush and Nancy Pelosi when they're talking about Rwanda and Darfur and other third world hell holes.  The US government shouldn't generally be in the historical judgment business, in my opinion, and that includes Germany, Rwanda, Israel, China etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, I doubt Fallows would say it&#8217;s not wrong to lecture Germany, Poland, and their neighbors on what their ancestors did 60 years ago.</p>
<p>That said, it is a bad idea to get the US Congress in the contentious historical debate subject.  Do we really wan them dispensing favor and abuse on every country on earth and its historical record.  And it is also a bad idea to get them into this when we have troops on the field dependent on Turkey.  I think the practical consequences are simply too real for our troops in the field.  There is no reason to do this to allys when we&#8217;re at war.  If we could call Stalin &#8220;Uncle Joe,&#8221; surely we can shut our traps about the Armenians, at least at the congressional level and at least for now.  </p>
<p>The &#8220;it&#8217;s the right thing to do&#8221; argument sounds like the kind of idealist clap-trap we usually hear from George Bush and Nancy Pelosi when they&#8217;re talking about Rwanda and Darfur and other third world hell holes.  The US government shouldn&#8217;t generally be in the historical judgment business, in my opinion, and that includes Germany, Rwanda, Israel, China etc.
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