It is unfortunate that Mr. Hawkins has written this. It is unfortunate because it is an attack on his former colleagues, but even more because it is an embarrassing spectacle. Yes, Murray Rothbard opposed unjust wars and pernicious foreign policy, for which he was scurrilously attacked after death by Mr. Buckley. If anyone would like to take Buckley’s side in that disgraceful episode, he associates himself with very shabby behaviour unbecoming of a gentleman. People at Antiwar.com also oppose unjust wars and pernicious foreign policy, for which they are routinely scurrilously attacked. They all see interventionism as a principal source of the expansion of the state at home and the loss of liberty. I find it hard to believe that anyone at the gathering would say that patriotism has become a dirty word, except perhaps by way of saying that warmongers have helped make it seem so by misusing the word and conflating it with things that have nothing to do with patriotism.
Lord Salisbury was, of course, the last of an old breed of aristocratic servants of the state whose duty it was to preserve and pass on the institutions and empire entrusted to him as Prime Minister. It is to his credit that his direct involvement in the dreadful South African War was relatively limited, since it was much more the brainchild of Joseph Chamberlain–a Chamberlain neoconservatives could love–and to his discredit that he countenanced such a war of conquest. The British comparison is useful only to a point, since our home country is richer in resources and more populous than Britain has ever been (I do not mean this as a boast, but simply as a statement of the facts), and would continue to enjoy a fairly high degree of prosperity if we gave up on Iraq or indeed have up the entire rotten empire. If there are cancers in the conservative movement, they are not mainly to be found among the libertarians, vexing and mistaken though the latter may sometimes be. They tend instead to concentrate themselves around places like FrontPageMag.com, and it is a pity that reputable and serious people should lend their efforts any respectability. I’ll leave it at that.
As the John Randolph Club panel shows, not everyone associated with Chronicles and the Rockford Institute shares the view that we should withdraw from Iraq entirely and immediately, which is what you might expect from an assembly of intelligent, informed gentlemen who take such questions seriously. I appreciate the concerns of those who fear chaos in the region following a withdrawal, and I understand why some people are convinced that America still has vital interests there. These concerns seem to me to be exaggerated in the first place and largely incorrect in the second, but even if both are true withdrawal from Iraq does not mean withdrawal from the entire region, at least not at the present time.
It is quite regrettable that Mr. Hawkins would prefer taking the path of denouncing colleagues. It is a habit of mind that is quite common to ideologues, which I had assumed Mr. Hawkins was not. I will not say that Mr. Hawkins has ceased to be a conservative and a patriot, though he chooses to say it of his colleagues, because he disagrees over one area of policy. That is the exactly sort of thing that has so disgusted me about much of the modern conservative movement–the tendency, all too common, to declare someone persona non grata because of a policy difference. Set aside debates over who the “real” conservatives are for the moment–that is at least something that may be legitimately questioned and debated–but to impute personal disloyalty and lack of patriotism to people because they do not share a policy view seems to me to be a very dangerous habit. There might be cases where such a charge was warranted, but you would have to be very clear and certain of the evidence before you made it. Such attacks have been done before, and the policy being defended by such disgusting accusations was a bad, misguided policy, the very one that has brought us to our current pass. Let Mr. Hawkins reflect on that when he considers what and whom he is defending.
It is, however, shocking to read Mr. Hawkins say this:
Opposition to America’s rise at every stage has always been rooted in the Left, where dissent against one’s own society and its constructive values is a defining trait.
Were the Loyalists “rooted in the Left”? They were the original North American Tories, as our ancestors derisively called them, and they were the root of North American conservatism. Rather by definition, they opposed the “rise” of America. Were the Federalists “rooted in the Left” in some meaningful sense? They were, it is true, more centralist than their rivals, but they were also men of property and station, who retained some sense that virtue, status and hierarchy had a proper role in republican society. They were adamant opponents of the French Revolution and its heirs, and they were the chief opponents of Mr. Jefferson’s expansionist plans. Whatever was wrong with the Federalists, it was not a product of leftism. Things are more complicated in later periods, since early and mid-century expansionism was the cause of some Democrats, but the War was certainly a product of the progressive, liberal party of its time, the GOP. Early American imperialism arose under GOP tutelage forty years later. Then progressives in the Democratic Party (and now once again in the GOP) took the lead in projecting power in Europe and elsewhere and meddling around the world, and we have been paying for it ever since. If empire-building is something Mr. Hawkins would like to praise, he might at least give credit to its true authors and acknowledge who the opponents really were.
Since he has chosen to play the rather tired game of guilt-by-association, it is worth noting that Mr. Hawkins has also associated with the Constitution Party in the past, a group that I am confident Mr. Hawkins’ new associates at FrontPage despise just as much as they despise the gentlemen at Chronicles. If he has no problem joining hands with people who are his obvious natural enemies, who am I to tell him that he should not? Meanwhile, if I am forced to choose between Kirkpatrick Sale and David Horowitz, I think we all know which one I will choose and it will not be difficult. Hint: it isn’t Horowitz.
I have enjoyed Mr. Hawkins’ work in the past, such as this latest contribution about the U.S. military and Africa. It is a pity that his most recent effort does not match it and previous products in thoughtfulness or insight.
Via Scott Richert
The JRC debate can be heard here.
Update: Mr. Hawkins also wrote this other stunning claim:
It is the defection from the goal of American preeminence by some on the right since the Cold War that marks a change. Those who want to see other powers rise as America retreats, in order to create a “multipolar” world (the term was actually used by several people), are the ones who have defected from the right.
Supporting hegemony is the standard of what it takes to be “on the right”? This is nonsense, of course, and an embrace of the caricature of men of the right as militarists and empire-builders. It nonetheless does point to a deeper problem. For many conservatives, especially those who grew up during the Cold War, support for the growth of the security state and international hegemony has been a defining feature of what they think conservatism is. As Scott notes in the comments of his post:
Far from being “conservative,” the extreme nationalism of men such as Hawkins is actually a leftist phenomenon–and has been ever since it emerged during the French Revolution.
This reflects a long-standing problem of post-war political conservatism in America. As Prof. Lukacs said in his important “The Problem of American Conservatism” (from Remembered Past, p. 582-583):
So were, unfortunately, most American conservatives, unaware of the crucial difference (George Orwell described it in one of his prime essays) between the ideological nationalist and the true patriot: the former is moved by the desire to extend the power of his nation, the latter is moved by the love of his country. They [the conservatives] were nationalist rather than patriotic: they put their nationalism above their religion, their nationalism was their religion. Thus American conservatives welcomed (at worst) or were indifferent (at best) to the dangers of excessive American commitments to all kinds of foreign governments or–what was more important–to the flooding of the United States by countless immigrants from the south who would provide cheap labor but whose increasing presence could only exacerbate deep national problems….The true patriot and the true conservative is suspicious of ideology, of any ideology: yet the American conservatives were, more than often, ideologues, disregarding John Adams’s pithy statement that ideology amounted to idiocy.
The tragic thing about nationalists is that many of them fall into nationalism because they believe that it is either the same as patriotism or they usually know no other way to express love of country except through bombast, boasting and contempt for other peoples. In their way, they have a strong attachment to the nation, but it is not the nation as it is or has been, but as one that they imagine or have been taught to imagine: a nation that always wins and dominates the scene. Thus proper love of country is transmuted into love of power, and defending power becomes the new standard of loyalty. At its worst, there is a nationalism where the nation is an idea or embodies a set of ideas, which ends up disembodying the nation and making it into nothing more than a concept. Nationalists are not consciously unpatriotic, though they do not understand patriotism correctly, but the things they support often work to the detriment of their country.
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September 28th, 2007 at 8:32 am
Roach
I’m surprised you’d defend some of the weirdos at antiwar.com. Their standard of evidence is one of credulity when things support their positions and hyper-skepticism when it does not. I know you’re very rigorous and thoughtful, and I also know we often agree, but not always. But I’m surprised just the tone of some of their writers, including their occasional forays into adolscent tantrums, doesn’t rub you the wrong way.
I also disagree the Tories were the real conservatives or its foundation. What of Washington, Adams, Dickenson, and other champions of the restrained Old Whig tradition?
September 28th, 2007 at 9:04 am
Daniel Larison
My main objection was this talk about their being “rooted in the Left.” Relative to the Loyalists, these gentlemen were more radical in their politics and were to their left politically. The Founders are great figures in our political tradition and should be respected as the authors of our independence and our constitutional system. Certainly compared to what has come after them they were deeply conservative men by temperament. All constitutionalists are a kind of conservative, but in their own time, if they had possessed the labeling convention of ‘left’ and ‘right’, it is pretty clear to me that you could not describe the Loyalists as having been “rooted in the Left.” You can say whatever else you like against the Loyalists, but this charge simply doesn’t hold up.
My remark about Loyalists as the root of North American conservatism was a bit imprecise. They were the root of Canadian conservatism, which George Grant believed to have been the only real conservatism in North America, and he has something of a point. In George Grant’s view, American conservatives weren’t really conservatives, and by the standards he was using he was right. If I understand him correctly, he was speaking specifically of a conscious political conservatism of the kind that emerged in Britain and Canada and a conservatism that stressed social solidarity, rather than a conservative mindset and conservative attachment to our constitutional republican system. I admire and respect the Old Whigs, and I can find a lot of common ground with the Old Whigs through the Country tradition of which they were a part. To the extent that the Loyalists were not part of the Country tradition, I would be willing to agree that they are in some sense less conservative. But that is to define conservatism in a peculiarly hybrid Bolingbrokean-Jeffersonian way.
It shouldn’t surprise you all that much. I don’t always agree with everyone or everything they promote, and I don’t see much productive coming from the “tantrums” you describe (though I have been known to go on rants and launch polemics and don’t hold it against someone for arguing passionately for or against something). In any case, I have linked to and supported Antiwar since I started blogging.
The people at Antiwar are a diverse bunch. Some of them are as excitable and a little too selective in their evidence-gathering at times as you say, and others are quite good. Jim Lobe and Ivan Eland, for example, are pretty sober-minded, and William Lind and Leon Hadar are regular contributors there. Hadar offers some of the best foreign policy commentary around. Antiwar Radio brings in a number of excellent, respected people for interviews.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:07 am
cyrus
Having read his biography of Columbus, I was more than a bit surprised to see Kirkpatrick Sale on the list of attendees. Hawkins’ essay is a bit hysterical, but with respect to Mr. Sale, I’m afraid I must agree with him. I have a very difficult time seeing how Sale fits into traditional conservatism. Perhaps he has radically revised his opinions since the 1990s.
September 28th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Daniel Larison
Sale’s presence at JRC doesn’t mean that anyone there endorses everything the man has ever said. I assume that most of those assembled would take exception to many of his views. As far as this panel goes, he was invited to speak on the topic of the war, and I thought most of his points were sound. In the past few years and even earlier, there have been efforts to find points of agreement with so-called “left conservatives,” greens and communitarians on the assumption that we have far more things in common than the conventional left-right divisions lead us to believe. This assumption seems right to me, and I find it confirmed in my conversations with my green and left-wing friends. Unless we would like to treat traditional conservative gatherings as hermetically sealed talking shops that do not aspire to change anyone’s mind or change anyone’s vision of how the world is and ought to be, I don’t see how we exclude people who share probably somewhere around 70-90% of that vision. TAC once had a cover feature with Norman Mailer, which is sure to induce a certain kind of knee-jerk reaction in some people, but the content of the interview made it clear why he was being included.
As for the Rothbard-bashing in the piece, I for one am tired of the argument that says traditional conservatives should write off allies because they were on the supposedly “wrong” side of the Vietnam debate, or any Cold War-era dispute, when it seems clear to me that many of the interventions of the Cold War were unnecessary and not in our interest to do. So much of hostility in the piece towards Rothbard is just visceral and unthinking, which is something I think we’ve seen too much of in recent years.
Even granting that Mr. Hawkins has fairly characterised Mr. Sale’s views in his citations (which, given his treatment of others in this article, I tend to doubt), the core of his argument, if I understand him correctly, is that traditional conservatives should live in an intellectual ghetto in which we do not speak or associate with anyone who holds *any* different assumptions about the world, lest we be tainted by their presence. One would certainly want to draw limits somewhere, of course, but if the choice is really supposed to be between associating with “neo-Luddite” greens who favour decentralisation and secession or going over to the side of godless warmongers for empire, give me some more neo-Luddites and be quick about it!
September 28th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
cyrus
Oh, definitely, agreed. I agree too with the efforts to find allies on the left. There are more than a few leftists from whom we paleocons can learn. And I do think Hawkins was rather overwrought, bordering on hysterical, much in the manner of nearly everything that goes on Horowitz’s site. I just think that he’s right about Sale’s hostility to nearly everything we as conservatives should wish to conserve, even if he is right about the war. It’s a minor point.
September 28th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
James Kabala
Due in large part to the debacle the Iraq War has become, I have moved much closer to the paleoconservative viewpoint, have become a proud subscriber to The American Conservative, and read paleocon sites like this one far more than pro-war conservative sites like The Corner. However, I still don’t consider myself a paleoconservative, and here’s a major reason why: The claims that Israel knew in advance of the 9/11 attacks (assuming that Hawkins reports Raimondo’s book accurately; I confess I have not read it) or that the U.S. government itself was involved in planning the attacks (a concept that I myself have seen repeatedly flirted with by Paul Craig Roberts and recently even by Clyde Wilson, who I would have thought was a better man than that) strike me as quite clearly being “disgraceful” and “shabby” behavior unworthy of a “gentleman” - or to put it frankly, vile lies. Unless Buckley accused Rothbard of conniving at mass murder, which I doubt he did, the offenses against truth of Raimondo, Roberts, and Wilson seem to dwarf those of Buckley.
September 28th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
daninardmore
In regard to who should be included or invited to such things as meetings of the John Randolph Club or anything else of interest to “Paleoconservatives”, I wonder if anyone has attempted to make contact with Gore Vidal. Now there would be a wonderful mix-up.
September 28th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Daniel Larison
I have never seen Dr. Wilson say any such thing. Unless Mr. Roberts has actually endorsed this view somewhere, I would be very skeptical about what any “flirtations” amount to. Ron Paul is routinely attacked on this score through “linking” him to the kooky Truthers, with whom he doesn’t agree and whose ideas he doesn’t endorse.
Raimondo has argued that Israeli intelligence had advance knowledge about the attacks.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j100402.html
In this article, he recounts news accounts of Israeli espionage in the U.S., and relates accounts that Israeli intelligence knew of some of the hijackers. Some of the news accounts in the article state that they warned U.S. officials. Raimondo pushes the evidence a bit and speculates, but does he commit an “offense against truth”? Not really. Come to think of it, *our* intelligence services did have advance warnings of what was coming, at least in piecemeal form. As we all do know, the warnings were not passed along or acted on expeditiously because of the problems in inter-agency communication and coordination, etc. Intelligence services are in the business of having advance knowledge of things, and to say that such-and-such a state has advance knowledge does not necessarily mean complicity in the event.
If it was such an “offense against truth” to talk about this, then FoxNews is also guilty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci-tkaPrMA4&mode=related&search=
Read Buckley’s obituary of Rothbard and see what you make of it:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n2_v47/ai_16448375
September 28th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Daniel Larison
I don’t know if anyone has ever contacted Gore Vidal, and I rather doubt Vidal would bother to attend. Speaking of Raimondo, he has had plenty of nice things to say about Vidal’s work over the years. As I recall, he has always framed his praise for Vidal in an anti-imperialist and libertarian framework, so I see nothing seriously wrong with it.
September 28th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
James Kabala
Have my comments been made subject to moderation? The first time this happened, I was forced to reconstruct my comment from memory (deleting some digressions and adding a Rothbard comment); the second time, I was smart enough to hit “copy” before I hit “submit.”
Roberts: http://mujca.com/debunking.htm Shorter version: Popular Mechanics must be lying because it is owned by the Hearst Corporation and has a cousin of Michael Chertoff as an editor! (In reality, the two men are distant cousins and have never met, but why let facts stand in the way of a good story?)
Roberts II (actually earlier in date): http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060914_evidence.htm
Wilson (who demurely takes a “Golly Gee, how can we possibly know what happened?” attitude and condescends to the sane an sensible as not being sufficiently distrustful of power): http://www.lewrockwell.com/wilson/wilson26.html
Actually, Ron Paul’s failure to fully and manfully disassociate himself from the 9/11 truthers has dampened my once-ardent enthusiasm for his candidacy. Why does he continue to make appearances on the Alex Jones show? Why did he give a laudatory eulogy at the funeral of a prominent 9/11 truther?
I don’t know enough about Rothbard’s life to judge the truth of Buckley’s statements about him. If he did not really applaud Nikita Khrushchev, Buckley has told a disgusting lie; but if he did, Rothbard himself is beneath contempt. I suppose it is interesting variety to have a paleoconservative hero to be an admire of Nat Turner rather than a neo-Confederate, but I wonder how well that opinion went over at Chronicles.
September 28th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
James Kabala
In my haste, I made two silly typos: It should, of course, have been “the sane and sensible” (I haven’t adopted the For Better or For Worse styleguide) and “an admirer of Nat Turner.”
September 28th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
James Kabala
I guess either moderation is off or it was just a technical glitch, in which case I apologize.
September 28th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Daniel Larison
I genuinely have no idea why some commenters must go through new approvals for their comments. GOM has had his comments repeatedly moderated in this way for years, and I confess that I don’t know why it keeps happening. My apologies for any trouble in posting the comment. I assure you that I do not limit or control my comments.
Mr. Roberts’ writings to which you linked are disappointing. I confess that I hadn’t seen those before. His arguments in the second piece seem to derive from a belief that the government is actually competent and its failures of competence need explanation; I never make such an assumption. I have assumed since the day it happened that all of it was proof that the government could not even perform its basic functions properly, so there is never any reason to assume anything sinister. For his part, Dr. Wilson makes two points that are eminently defensible: we don’t know everything about what happened in the attacks (and we don’t) and governments will deceive the public for the sake of power, which is always worth keeping in mind.
Even *if* Rothbard did what Buckley claimed, one mistake does not make an entire lifetime. Buckley’s obsession with this episode may be explained by this:
“Allitt’s discussion of Buckley helps clear up a mystery. In Buckley’s venomous obituary notice of Murray Rothbard, many readers will have found puzzling Buckley’s stress on Khrushchev’s visit to the United States in 1959. Why did Buckley dredge up this minor event of thirty-five years ago? As Allitt makes clear, the struggle against Khrushchev’s visit had the status of a crusade for Buckley and his National Review associates: to them Western Civilization was at stake (pp. 67-70). That Buckley became at the time overwrought is perhaps understandable; what is harder to fathom is that this “venture in triviality” remains for him a major incident in his life so many years later.”
http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=80
Here is an alternative account of the dispute:
“Unlike Buckley, who resigned himself to the expansion of the state as a means of countering the Soviet threat, Rothbard insisted that the Russians were not inherently aggressive. Prosecution of the Cold War, Rothbard warned, would magnify the power of the state beyond recognition. When Buckley protested Khrushchev’s 1959 visit, complaining that the general secretary might be sleeping in Lincoln’s bedroom, Rothbard shot back that this accommodation would be ‘more than apt, considering that Mr. K’s deeds in Hungary were precisely equivalent to Mr. Lincoln’s butchery in the South’ (p. 104). For these offenses and others, Buckley anathematized Rothbard.”
http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?issueID=17&articleID=178
Rockwell writes on this point:
“This accusation circulated in the 1960s and resurfaced in Bill Buckley’s bitter and malevolent obituary of his old nemesis. “Rothbard physically applauded Khrushchev in his limousine as it passed by on the street,” wrote Buckley. Nonsense. What was at issue was Rothbard’s refusal to join the ridiculous National Review campaign to whip up a protest against Khrushchev’s visit to the US (taken, we now know, over the vociferous objections of hard-liners in the Kremlin). Raimondo quotes Rothbard noting that Buckley and Co. are always eager to extend their hand to any other “Bloody Butcher” in the world, including “Winston Churchill, Bloody Butcher of the refugees of Dresden, and countless others.” Rothbard refused to join Buckley’s call for “a totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores” to fight the Cold War, and for that, Buckley never forgave him. (A must read: the epilogue skewering Buckley’s obit point by point.)”
And in his own words:
“Yes, yes, Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev is a Bloody Butcher. On the Day of Judgment he will answer for his crimes, and roast a thousand years in hellfire. But there are a lot of Bloody Butchers around; the world reeks with them, is universally run by them, has been run by them, more or less, for many centuries. Lord Acton, the great British libertarian historian, once said that the Muse of the historian is not Clio, but Rhadamanthus, the avenger of innocent blood. I agree. But, in the meanwhile before the millennium arrives, what do we do with these Bloody Butchers? Khrushchev is a Bloody Butcher, but so is Churchill, and DeGaulle, and Franco, and Chiang, and Ky, and countless other “bastions of the free world.” Why did these hypocritical moralists, who not only do not blanch at these people but rush to Shake Their Hand, suddenly balk at Nikita? Certainly, Winston Churchill slaughtered far more men in his lifetime than had Nikita. So did F.D.R. Harry S. Truman, Butcher of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is not far behind. Our task should be: to reduce the annual quantity of butchery as much as possible. How do we do this, we anti-Butchers? By reviling Khrushchev or Kosygin as much as possible, and thereby making a peaceful detente impossible, and nuclear extermination ever closer? Or by seeing to it that peace prevails, and that therefore there is no mass international butchery to worry about? The chief instrument of butchery by state rulers over innocent civilians is war; refrain from war, work for peace, and we shall have done our part in reducing butchery in the world. But, on the other hand, if we send H-bombs and missiles to Moscow as pique for past Muscovite butchery, we thereby add immeasurably to the total amount of butchery in the world.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard111.html
Incidentally, Raimondo, who has written a well-received biography of Rothbard, states that the supposed episode of applauding Kruschev never happened:
http://www.takimag.com/blogs#668
September 28th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
James Kabala
Thanks for the information.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Grumpy Old Man
I think my comments might go into moderation when they exceed a certain length. The short ones post right away.