Comments on: Why Thompson’s Gaffe Matters http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/ n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:28:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7677 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:57:56 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7677 They might have kept him as a local quisling, much as they used the Arrow Cross, Ustasha and Legionaries in Hungary, Croatia and Romania. There were plenty of Ukrainians who worked alongside the Germans during the occupation, and there was an old contingent of die-hard Don Cossacks who sided with the invaders when the German invasion came. Those striving for Ukrainian and/or Cossack independence have often enough sided with invaders or enemies of Russia to advance their goals. It makes a certain amount of sense why they would, and there's nothing new there. They might have kept him as a local quisling, much as they used the Arrow Cross, Ustasha and Legionaries in Hungary, Croatia and Romania. There were plenty of Ukrainians who worked alongside the Germans during the occupation, and there was an old contingent of die-hard Don Cossacks who sided with the invaders when the German invasion came. Those striving for Ukrainian and/or Cossack independence have often enough sided with invaders or enemies of Russia to advance their goals. It makes a certain amount of sense why they would, and there’s nothing new there.

]]> by: Grumpy Old Man http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7676 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:06:59 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7676 I've been reading Dallas's <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=LXdVF6LmTa8C&dq=1945+dallas" rel="nofollow"> <i>1945: The War That Never Ended</i></a>. In doing so, learned for the first time that even after the invasion and the horrendous toll in dead and imprisoned, Stalin attempted to negotiate a separate peace with Hitler, and failed because Germany wouldn't give up the Ukraine. Stalin did achieve a neutrality pact with Japan, and only jumped on the bones at the tail end of the war. Although German advances were initially welcomed by many in the East, the initial bloom often came off that rose as German disdain for the Slavs began to manifest itself in oppressive conduct. There were nevertheless thousands of Soviets who fought on the German side, notwithstanding Hitler's suspicions, for example, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vlasov" rel="nofollow">General Vlasov</a>. No doubt, had the Germans won, they would have erected a statute to Vlasov, or shot him, or possibly both. I’ve been reading Dallas’s 1945: The War That Never Ended. In doing so, learned for the first time that even after the invasion and the horrendous toll in dead and imprisoned, Stalin attempted to negotiate a separate peace with Hitler, and failed because Germany wouldn’t give up the Ukraine. Stalin did achieve a neutrality pact with Japan, and only jumped on the bones at the tail end of the war.

Although German advances were initially welcomed by many in the East, the initial bloom often came off that rose as German disdain for the Slavs began to manifest itself in oppressive conduct. There were nevertheless thousands of Soviets who fought on the German side, notwithstanding Hitler’s suspicions, for example, General Vlasov.

No doubt, had the Germans won, they would have erected a statute to Vlasov, or shot him, or possibly both.

]]> by: Roach http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7675 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:04:31 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7675 As for monuments, I thought it interesting when I was in Krakow that they left undisturbed a monument to the Red Army that also contained the final resting place of various Red Army soldiers on the grounds that it was impious to disturb the same. I thought this a credit to the magnanimity of the Polish people. This kind of approach is in sharp contrast to the wild protests and charges of anti-Semitism when Poles erected crosses at Auschwitz to honor their ancestors. This in a place where, contrary to the conventional impression, a million or more Polish Christians were killed by the Germans and their lackeys. As for monuments, I thought it interesting when I was in Krakow that they left undisturbed a monument to the Red Army that also contained the final resting place of various Red Army soldiers on the grounds that it was impious to disturb the same. I thought this a credit to the magnanimity of the Polish people. This kind of approach is in sharp contrast to the wild protests and charges of anti-Semitism when Poles erected crosses at Auschwitz to honor their ancestors. This in a place where, contrary to the conventional impression, a million or more Polish Christians were killed by the Germans and their lackeys.

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7674 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:58:52 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7674 Thanks for your comment. Yes, that's a very good point. For their part, the Germans tried, at least during the early phase of the invasion of the USSR, to cast themselves as liberators of the subject peoples. Had Germany won, that myth would probably have become well-established and you would hear Germans talking about the "liberation of Moscow." WWII mythology is a potent tool for revising and using history to solidify control over a population. But even without the propaganda, I can see why Russians would have reacted badly to the removal of the monument. It may not be a very rational response, but the removal is a reminder of lost territories and probably, equally irrationally, it summons up outrage that anyone would touch a monument to the great anti-fascist war. It's the same kind of response directed against Americans who argue that we didn't need to enter WWII: they must like fascism! As I said, irrational, but deeply ingrained. All that said and without any illusions about what the Soviet government was trying to achieve in the war, it wouldn't hurt if more Westerners acknowledged the sacrifices made by the soldiers and people in the USSR during the war, since they were effectively victims of both systems. Thanks for your comment. Yes, that’s a very good point. For their part, the Germans tried, at least during the early phase of the invasion of the USSR, to cast themselves as liberators of the subject peoples. Had Germany won, that myth would probably have become well-established and you would hear Germans talking about the “liberation of Moscow.” WWII mythology is a potent tool for revising and using history to solidify control over a population.

But even without the propaganda, I can see why Russians would have reacted badly to the removal of the monument. It may not be a very rational response, but the removal is a reminder of lost territories and probably, equally irrationally, it summons up outrage that anyone would touch a monument to the great anti-fascist war. It’s the same kind of response directed against Americans who argue that we didn’t need to enter WWII: they must like fascism! As I said, irrational, but deeply ingrained.

All that said and without any illusions about what the Soviet government was trying to achieve in the war, it wouldn’t hurt if more Westerners acknowledged the sacrifices made by the soldiers and people in the USSR during the war, since they were effectively victims of both systems.

]]> by: petefrance http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7673 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:38:12 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/09/20/why-thompsons-gaffe-matters/#comment-7673 "the idea that the Soviets were fighting for “other people’s liberty” was ludicrous and obviously so" Obvious to us, but never underestimate the power of a national delusion. Even among my smart, sober-minded Russian friends, everything that happened after turning the German's back from Moscow is still considered the 'liberation of Europe' - and earnestly so. This is fertile ground from which the otherwise incomprehensible row with Estonia sprouted. One friend told me: 'My grandfather died fighting the fascists to free Estonia, and they do this to our monument?' “the idea that the Soviets were fighting for “other people’s liberty” was ludicrous and obviously so”

Obvious to us, but never underestimate the power of a national delusion. Even among my smart, sober-minded Russian friends, everything that happened after turning the German’s back from Moscow is still considered the ‘liberation of Europe’ - and earnestly so. This is fertile ground from which the otherwise incomprehensible row with Estonia sprouted. One friend told me: ‘My grandfather died fighting the fascists to free Estonia, and they do this to our monument?’

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