I appreciate Mark Krikorian’s fair description of my post criticising this idea of his about how to combat and defeat “radical Islam.” We are still in disagreement about his proposal, but let me say a couple of things about his response. He wrote:
Islam will change, but only (or at least sooner) if we pursue some variation of what Larry Auster calls “separationism.” “Separationism” is the isolation of Islam from the rest of the world through military action, restrictions on immigration, and other means, presumably including a radically more aggressive search for alternative automobile fuels.
I grant Mr. Krikorian that Islam will change, as any religion with so many adherents spread across the globe would inevitably change over time, and it has changed before. The first difficulty is that certain kinds of Islam already have changed in the past, and many of the changes wrought by revivalism and Salafism have been to take Islam in quite the opposite direction of the “moderate” Islam Mr. Krikorian envisions emerging in the aftermath of this apparently militarised embargo of the Islamic world. As a kind of glorified sanctions regime, it would have many of the adverse, undesirable effects of a sanctions regime. Militarised embargoes are also not generally known to help bring down their targets, but rather reinforce the more hard-line and radical elements inside a country while the population is cut off from the outside world and forced to fall back on whatever the local authorities tell them.
I think the separationism described here (with which I do not entirely disagree, at least as far immigration is concerned) would certainly cause a change in the Islamic world. It is not clear to me, however, that the change would necessarily be the kind Mr. Krikorian hopes to see. If such an isolation of the Islamic world from the West were possible, the isolation of that world from the rest would never be complete in any case, as large parts of the rest of the world are not interested in isolating themselves from the Islamic world. India cannot isolate itself from that world without cutting itself in two and closing itself off from markets for its labour. China would probably opportunistically try to fill any void left by Westerners. A policy of isolation combined with military action would seem to combine the worst of both worlds, since it would reinforce the most violent instincts among jihadis and build up sympathy for them while rejecting any alternative connection. It would be our Cuba policy writ large, but with an added refusal to take in refugees. I suppose the idea here is to create sufficient internal pressures within the Islamic world such that something gives way in dramatic fashion, but if the end result would be to encourage internecine strife inside this isolated Islamic world it seems as if this would simply strengthen the worst elements and produce an Islamic world in far worse shape, politically, socially and economically, than exists today. Everything that fuels jihadism would remain, and the indigenous forces that oppose it would probably have been swept away and purged in the process.
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August 22nd, 2007 at 9:37 pm
eth9
What would you suggest we do about Islam, Daniel? That is other than reform our immigration policy. Also to what extent would you want it reformed? Would you want a reduction of Muslim immigrants, an end to Muslim immigration or even a net migration of Muslim immigrants (e.g. the illegals and terrorists/terrorist financers)?
Do you see yourself as being in between the Separationist camp and the Realist camp when it comes to America’s relationship with Islam? I’m not looking for a 10 point plan, but more like a general direction of where you would like to see American domestic & foreign policy go vis-a-vis Islam.
August 23rd, 2007 at 7:03 am
scriblerus
This whole separationism idea seems quite bizarre. One of the things that drives fundamentalisms is an “us against them” mentality and by kicking out its Muslims, blockading the Middle East, etc., the U. S. would simply be sharpening that sense of “us against them.”
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
cyrus
Scriblerus:
One of the things that drives fundamentalisms is an “us against them” mentality and by kicking out its Muslims, blockading the Middle East, etc., the U. S. would simply be sharpening that sense of “us against them.”
So?
If they’re not here, they can’t attack us here, and their hatred for us, even if a hundred times more intense than it already is, would be of interest only to academics and tourists seeking a risky vacation destination. Muslim terrorists don’t have airforces, navies, or ballistic missiles. Even Muslim states, for the most part, don’t have effective ones. They can only arrive because we let them in and allow them to hide in a population of sympathetic coreligionists emboldened by seditious preachers and knit together in clannishness and hostility by chain migration and consanguineous marriage. Europe’s situation is a little more difficult, since they have self-sustaining Muslim communities on their soil; suffice it to say that I would rather the US not find itself in that same difficult situation in 20 or 30 years. That they have dug their own hole is no reason for us to keep digging, too. Unfortunately, under our supreme principle of non-discrimination, it’s apparently preferable to construct a police state for everyone rather than to appear to distinguish between groups of people.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:21 am
scriblerus
Of course Muslim radicals don’t have navies and air forces, but it doesn’t mean that Americans abroad won’t become targets. Unless, of course, we just completely pull up the drawbridge…
August 24th, 2007 at 7:24 am
cyrus
Reducing the risk of harm to the relatively small number of Americans who go to, say, Egypt or Saudi Arabia is hardly a good reason for keeping the gates open here for the next Muhammad Atta.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:17 am
scriblerus
I wasn’t really thinking of American tourists abroad. US citizens travel far and wide over the face of the globe and can be targets wherever they go. Is the US really going to stop doing business of any sort in the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia, India, the Far East or Europe for that matter? That’s what separationism would really require.