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	<title>Comments on: Better Late Than Never, I Suppose</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: betsybounds</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6840</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6840</guid>
					<description>I think it would be wise to remember that voting for Bush in 2000 and 2004 was not, for most if not many of us, a positive good--not even at the time.  But the alternatives were Gore and Kerry, respectively, and we held our noses and pulled the lever. It wasn't necessarily an affirmation of what Bush believed--which, as is correctly stated by several here, was never any secret--or a blindness to what "compassionate conservatism" was and remains.  I, for one, will never get over having voted for Ross Perot in 1992--in part at least to disown H.W. Bush--and, thereby, helped put Clinton in the White House. I'm no fan of either Bush, but it would be a good idea to recall what the alternatives to W. actually were.  Anyone who thinks there was a good alternative to Bush in 2000 is a victim of faulty memory. The neo-cons, or at least most of the ones I know of, preferred McCain (e.g. the entire editorial staff of The Weekly Standard, just for starters) but were not able to influence the outcome in their own favor.

It would also be a good idea to consider the argument that the reasons for going into Iraq were good ones.  There were no lies, unless you include the Big Lie that has been told for so long, now, that even Bush's biggest supporters appear to have swallowed it. There were, in fact, probably masses of WMD in Iraq before Bush was persuaded (by that faux hero of Desert Storm and subsequent betrayor of  Iraqi Shiite rebels) to go through the months-long charade at the UN, and they were at least arguably removed during the time that charade purchased for Saddam. There were documented operational and strategic contacts between Saddam and al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Thomas Joscelyn and Steven Emerson have documented many of them. There were doubtless others. Doesn't anyone else recall Salman Pak? Does Abu Nidal ring a bell here?

I agree that Bush has made a hash out of many things. I've been persuaded for some time now that "somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot."  We can only thank God that Alberto Gonzales was never appointed to the Supreme Court. Bush lost me with NCLB and Campaign Finance Reform, which were both total abdications of his responsibility, the latter of his Constitutional responsibility. We need not forgive that to recognize that the alternatives to him in 2 elections were unacceptable. But the only problem I have with his entry into Iraq is that he hasn't pressed to win, and he has allowed the State Department to co-opt him (that's a charitable reading of the case, BTW) into suing for peace with Iran without entering the all-but-inevitable conflict with the mullahs. For that failure, we will all pay a heavy price in the probably near future, and at least in part because of his weaselly stances, our victory is by no means a sure thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be wise to remember that voting for Bush in 2000 and 2004 was not, for most if not many of us, a positive good&#8211;not even at the time.  But the alternatives were Gore and Kerry, respectively, and we held our noses and pulled the lever. It wasn&#8217;t necessarily an affirmation of what Bush believed&#8211;which, as is correctly stated by several here, was never any secret&#8211;or a blindness to what &#8220;compassionate conservatism&#8221; was and remains.  I, for one, will never get over having voted for Ross Perot in 1992&#8211;in part at least to disown H.W. Bush&#8211;and, thereby, helped put Clinton in the White House. I&#8217;m no fan of either Bush, but it would be a good idea to recall what the alternatives to W. actually were.  Anyone who thinks there was a good alternative to Bush in 2000 is a victim of faulty memory. The neo-cons, or at least most of the ones I know of, preferred McCain (e.g. the entire editorial staff of The Weekly Standard, just for starters) but were not able to influence the outcome in their own favor.</p>
<p>It would also be a good idea to consider the argument that the reasons for going into Iraq were good ones.  There were no lies, unless you include the Big Lie that has been told for so long, now, that even Bush&#8217;s biggest supporters appear to have swallowed it. There were, in fact, probably masses of WMD in Iraq before Bush was persuaded (by that faux hero of Desert Storm and subsequent betrayor of  Iraqi Shiite rebels) to go through the months-long charade at the UN, and they were at least arguably removed during the time that charade purchased for Saddam. There were documented operational and strategic contacts between Saddam and al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Thomas Joscelyn and Steven Emerson have documented many of them. There were doubtless others. Doesn&#8217;t anyone else recall Salman Pak? Does Abu Nidal ring a bell here?</p>
<p>I agree that Bush has made a hash out of many things. I&#8217;ve been persuaded for some time now that &#8220;somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot.&#8221;  We can only thank God that Alberto Gonzales was never appointed to the Supreme Court. Bush lost me with NCLB and Campaign Finance Reform, which were both total abdications of his responsibility, the latter of his Constitutional responsibility. We need not forgive that to recognize that the alternatives to him in 2 elections were unacceptable. But the only problem I have with his entry into Iraq is that he hasn&#8217;t pressed to win, and he has allowed the State Department to co-opt him (that&#8217;s a charitable reading of the case, BTW) into suing for peace with Iran without entering the all-but-inevitable conflict with the mullahs. For that failure, we will all pay a heavy price in the probably near future, and at least in part because of his weaselly stances, our victory is by no means a sure thing.
</p>
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		<title>by: GuyInCT</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6836</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 02:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6836</guid>
					<description>I remember before the Iraq war began telling friends that I was against it but was hoping against hope that Bush and crew knew what they were doing. Turns out they didn't (or an even scarier thought - maybe they did).

I guess many of us were taken in with the whole Neo-Con thing. After all, most of the NeoCons were weaned on the left wing ideology of the 60s but then later had  an epiphany. Turns out that they were just as much in favor of big government as the Left... just for different causes. They were certainly not conservative in the Goldwater or Reagan sense. They somehow convinced us that big government and interventionist warfare were somehow "conservative values".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember before the Iraq war began telling friends that I was against it but was hoping against hope that Bush and crew knew what they were doing. Turns out they didn&#8217;t (or an even scarier thought - maybe they did).</p>
<p>I guess many of us were taken in with the whole Neo-Con thing. After all, most of the NeoCons were weaned on the left wing ideology of the 60s but then later had  an epiphany. Turns out that they were just as much in favor of big government as the Left&#8230; just for different causes. They were certainly not conservative in the Goldwater or Reagan sense. They somehow convinced us that big government and interventionist warfare were somehow &#8220;conservative values&#8221;.
</p>
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6831</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6831</guid>
					<description>As our young Dark Lord becomes ever more prolific, the appearance of lefty trolls is well-nigh inevitable, and perhaps an emblem of his success.

The use of &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; invective is, of course, no monopoly of the GOP, but more or less a constant of our politics from its inception. Read what they wrote about Hamilton and Burr in the early days of the Republic, for example.

More recently, from FDR's "malefactors of great wealth" to Hillary's "vast right-wing conspiracy" to the constant resort to "racism," "nativism," "sexism," "homophobia" and "theocracy," not to speak of the ever-popular "fascism," the left has developed its own varieties of slingable mud.

It's something of a pipe dream that in a democracy issues could be discussed freely, on their merits, without resort to &lt;a href="http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;rhetorical devices&lt;/a&gt; to rouse hackles and the rabble. As a friend of mine once said of a malefactor we were dealing with, there's no point in getting angry. Might as well get angry at a rattlesnake for being  venomous. 

Wear your boots and watch where you step in the underbrush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As our young Dark Lord becomes ever more prolific, the appearance of lefty trolls is well-nigh inevitable, and perhaps an emblem of his success.</p>
<p>The use of <i>ad hominem</i> invective is, of course, no monopoly of the GOP, but more or less a constant of our politics from its inception. Read what they wrote about Hamilton and Burr in the early days of the Republic, for example.</p>
<p>More recently, from FDR&#8217;s &#8220;malefactors of great wealth&#8221; to Hillary&#8217;s &#8220;vast right-wing conspiracy&#8221; to the constant resort to &#8220;racism,&#8221; &#8220;nativism,&#8221; &#8220;sexism,&#8221; &#8220;homophobia&#8221; and &#8220;theocracy,&#8221; not to speak of the ever-popular &#8220;fascism,&#8221; the left has developed its own varieties of slingable mud.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s something of a pipe dream that in a democracy issues could be discussed freely, on their merits, without resort to <a href="http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm" rel="nofollow">rhetorical devices</a> to rouse hackles and the rabble. As a friend of mine once said of a malefactor we were dealing with, there&#8217;s no point in getting angry. Might as well get angry at a rattlesnake for being  venomous. </p>
<p>Wear your boots and watch where you step in the underbrush.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6827</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6827</guid>
					<description>If by "crap," you mean that we don't forget that these Presidents were also rank liars who trampled on law and Constitution when it suited them, then I suppose we must resort to it.  Bush does also borrow tactics from Nixon, and you won't find much Reagan veneration here.  I and the conservatives who read my blog are probably among the relative few willing to be "honest about their own history," but your sad partisan loyalty prohibits you from seeing this.  I have never been drawn to "authoritarian flag-waving sloganeering morons"--I leave that to Giuliani supporters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If by &#8220;crap,&#8221; you mean that we don&#8217;t forget that these Presidents were also rank liars who trampled on law and Constitution when it suited them, then I suppose we must resort to it.  Bush does also borrow tactics from Nixon, and you won&#8217;t find much Reagan veneration here.  I and the conservatives who read my blog are probably among the relative few willing to be &#8220;honest about their own history,&#8221; but your sad partisan loyalty prohibits you from seeing this.  I have never been drawn to &#8220;authoritarian flag-waving sloganeering morons&#8221;&#8211;I leave that to Giuliani supporters.
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		<title>by: MoeLarryAndJesus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6826</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6826</guid>
					<description>" Mr. Bush has a long record of attacking his enemies by disparaging their patriotism, decency and common sense.  He has learned well from the example of the masters of deceit and chutzpah–Wilson, FDR, Clinton–who were always sure to accuse their political opponents of the very things of which they were far more likely to be guilty. "

Pathetic.  Even while apologizing for the messy miscarriage of the Bushpig era, cons still have to resort to this kind of crap.  Let's get one thing straight - Bush and the leading lights of his dimwitted administration learned most of their lessons from NIXON.  And Saint Reagan wasn't above this sort of thing, either.

The inability of cons to be honest about their own history is why the next Republican nominee will be the same sort of malign thug Dumbya has been... or even worse.  You people can't help yourselves any more - you're drawn to authoritarian flag-waving sloganeering morons like moths to a flame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Mr. Bush has a long record of attacking his enemies by disparaging their patriotism, decency and common sense.  He has learned well from the example of the masters of deceit and chutzpah–Wilson, FDR, Clinton–who were always sure to accuse their political opponents of the very things of which they were far more likely to be guilty. &#8221;</p>
<p>Pathetic.  Even while apologizing for the messy miscarriage of the Bushpig era, cons still have to resort to this kind of crap.  Let&#8217;s get one thing straight - Bush and the leading lights of his dimwitted administration learned most of their lessons from NIXON.  And Saint Reagan wasn&#8217;t above this sort of thing, either.</p>
<p>The inability of cons to be honest about their own history is why the next Republican nominee will be the same sort of malign thug Dumbya has been&#8230; or even worse.  You people can&#8217;t help yourselves any more - you&#8217;re drawn to authoritarian flag-waving sloganeering morons like moths to a flame.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6817</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6817</guid>
					<description>I agree that it isn't a betrayal in the sense that Bush suddenly changed his positions on a lot of these things after he came to power.  It is a betrayal to the degree that he actually insists on carrying out policies that are vehemently opposed by many of his political allies and embraced by the people who are normally his political foes.  When it comes to domestic legislation, he governs just like his father, and conservatives certainly did regard his father's pieces of legislation as betrayals.  (Yes, breaking the tax pledge was the big one, but it was more than that.)  

I agree that the amnesty has the potential to do far more damage to the social structure, political habits and culture of the country, and so I suppose I probably overstated the importance of the other things, but all of the other policies he has advanced have been distastrous in their respective spheres of fiscal management, controlling the growth of government and foreign relations.  What puzzles me is how the same people who spent five years cheering on, or at least acquiescing in, these other disasters can now claim shock or surprise that he has pursued another disastrous policy.  

I guess some people don't get angry with Bush until its their own particular ox that is being gored, but what is curious about Ms. Noonan's reaction is that she has hardly been vehement on the subject of immigration herself.  I have remarked on that in the past.  She is certainly an enforcement-first sort, but controlling illegal immigration has hardly been an issue that really energised her in the past.  Granted, she writes for the Journal, which limits how energised she can be about the subject, but it is odd that this, of all things, has finally pushed her into open rebellion.  It is not so odd that she remains silent on the role of the Journal and its many contributors in collaborating in this gargantuan fraud against the nation.

As for the role of movement regulars in smearing antiwar conservatives, I did point to this in the post.  Perhaps I should have been more explicit.  I assumed readers would get my point from the brief references I made.  

Of course, there is also something rich about many anti-immigration conservatives, who went along with every other illegal thing this administration has done, suddenly becoming very exercised about the sanctity of the rule of law.  I suppose you can shred the Constitution with one hand while pointing to federal law and gesturing approvingly with the other hand, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it isn&#8217;t a betrayal in the sense that Bush suddenly changed his positions on a lot of these things after he came to power.  It is a betrayal to the degree that he actually insists on carrying out policies that are vehemently opposed by many of his political allies and embraced by the people who are normally his political foes.  When it comes to domestic legislation, he governs just like his father, and conservatives certainly did regard his father&#8217;s pieces of legislation as betrayals.  (Yes, breaking the tax pledge was the big one, but it was more than that.)  </p>
<p>I agree that the amnesty has the potential to do far more damage to the social structure, political habits and culture of the country, and so I suppose I probably overstated the importance of the other things, but all of the other policies he has advanced have been distastrous in their respective spheres of fiscal management, controlling the growth of government and foreign relations.  What puzzles me is how the same people who spent five years cheering on, or at least acquiescing in, these other disasters can now claim shock or surprise that he has pursued another disastrous policy.  </p>
<p>I guess some people don&#8217;t get angry with Bush until its their own particular ox that is being gored, but what is curious about Ms. Noonan&#8217;s reaction is that she has hardly been vehement on the subject of immigration herself.  I have remarked on that in the past.  She is certainly an enforcement-first sort, but controlling illegal immigration has hardly been an issue that really energised her in the past.  Granted, she writes for the Journal, which limits how energised she can be about the subject, but it is odd that this, of all things, has finally pushed her into open rebellion.  It is not so odd that she remains silent on the role of the Journal and its many contributors in collaborating in this gargantuan fraud against the nation.</p>
<p>As for the role of movement regulars in smearing antiwar conservatives, I did point to this in the post.  Perhaps I should have been more explicit.  I assumed readers would get my point from the brief references I made.  </p>
<p>Of course, there is also something rich about many anti-immigration conservatives, who went along with every other illegal thing this administration has done, suddenly becoming very exercised about the sanctity of the rule of law.  I suppose you can shred the Constitution with one hand while pointing to federal law and gesturing approvingly with the other hand, but it doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense to do this.
</p>
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		<title>by: hisownfool</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6815</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6815</guid>
					<description>Daniel: I would argue that, if anything, it's worse than you describe. People like Noonan facilitated many of the worst offenses of the Bush administration. They led the charge for the war in Iraq; they didn't hesitate to join in the chorus of denunciations. (Need I remind you of "Unpatriotic Conservatives?") When things like the surveillance program, extraordinary rendition and torture were exposed, they went on the offensive against those doing the exposing -- doing everything from urging prosecutions to publishing their home addresses and phone numbers.

These aren't disillusioned naifs: they're Thermidorians looking for a way to distance themselves from a man they helped put and keep in power without mentioning the principal reason that he's so unpopular. I'm not saying that their disagreement over the immigration bill isn't sincere: I'm saying it's convenient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel: I would argue that, if anything, it&#8217;s worse than you describe. People like Noonan facilitated many of the worst offenses of the Bush administration. They led the charge for the war in Iraq; they didn&#8217;t hesitate to join in the chorus of denunciations. (Need I remind you of &#8220;Unpatriotic Conservatives?&#8221;) When things like the surveillance program, extraordinary rendition and torture were exposed, they went on the offensive against those doing the exposing &#8212; doing everything from urging prosecutions to publishing their home addresses and phone numbers.</p>
<p>These aren&#8217;t disillusioned naifs: they&#8217;re Thermidorians looking for a way to distance themselves from a man they helped put and keep in power without mentioning the principal reason that he&#8217;s so unpopular. I&#8217;m not saying that their disagreement over the immigration bill isn&#8217;t sincere: I&#8217;m saying it&#8217;s convenient.
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		<title>by: cyrus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6808</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6808</guid>
					<description>Character assassination in politics long predates Bush, and so does hypocrisy about it.  Nearly everyone does it, and almost all of them complain about it when it is done to them.  

To give his erstwhile supporters a bit of credit, the issue of immigration was somewhat less urgent when the Republicans controlled the House.  At least we could hope for Hastert and Sensenbrenner to help us, and last year, prior to the election, they did.  We can expect no such mercy from Pelosi and Conyers, whose chief objection seems to be that this new bill is not lenient enough, and so the rage is, sensibly, much greater now that Bush's plan is that much closer to becoming law.  

For many of us - I was a former, qualified supporter of Bush - immigration simply is for more important than the war or trampling the Constitution (if you trample a corpse, does the corpse care?).  You may find that ignoble, but the effects of unrestrained immigration are readily apparent to us every day, and it further has the potential to wreck America in a way that even another fifty years of ignominy on the Euphrates simply can't.

Finally, the President's dogged insistence on this issue is enough to stoke the rage even of otherwise enthusiastic supporters.  They didn't like "comprehensive reform" the first time, liked it less the second time, and now they're rather naturally quite upset that he keeps insisting on foisting on them something they've rejected with increasing enthusiasm each time it's been presented..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Character assassination in politics long predates Bush, and so does hypocrisy about it.  Nearly everyone does it, and almost all of them complain about it when it is done to them.  </p>
<p>To give his erstwhile supporters a bit of credit, the issue of immigration was somewhat less urgent when the Republicans controlled the House.  At least we could hope for Hastert and Sensenbrenner to help us, and last year, prior to the election, they did.  We can expect no such mercy from Pelosi and Conyers, whose chief objection seems to be that this new bill is not lenient enough, and so the rage is, sensibly, much greater now that Bush&#8217;s plan is that much closer to becoming law.  </p>
<p>For many of us - I was a former, qualified supporter of Bush - immigration simply is for more important than the war or trampling the Constitution (if you trample a corpse, does the corpse care?).  You may find that ignoble, but the effects of unrestrained immigration are readily apparent to us every day, and it further has the potential to wreck America in a way that even another fifty years of ignominy on the Euphrates simply can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Finally, the President&#8217;s dogged insistence on this issue is enough to stoke the rage even of otherwise enthusiastic supporters.  They didn&#8217;t like &#8220;comprehensive reform&#8221; the first time, liked it less the second time, and now they&#8217;re rather naturally quite upset that he keeps insisting on foisting on them something they&#8217;ve rejected with increasing enthusiasm each time it&#8217;s been presented..
</p>
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		<title>by: kranza</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6805</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/06/01/better-late-than-never-i-suppose/#comment-6805</guid>
					<description>Yeah, Bush may have hit a new low in his spirited attack on those who have supported him for so long but this can't really be considered a betrayal.  He told us he was a supporter of big government, even to the point where the absence of government is an attack on the poor or an abandonment of the afflicted ("when people are hurting, the govt has to move"), back when he first ran.  He also told us he supported unassimilated immigration ("We are now one of the largest Spanish-speaking nations in the world...By nominating me, my party has made a choice to welcome the new America.") well before he was elected.  The Bush supporters just didn't want to face it until they absolutely had to; ie, when a bill was on the table and Bush was insulting them over it.  Many of them are ready to forgive him and move on if they can just get through this unpleasantness somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Bush may have hit a new low in his spirited attack on those who have supported him for so long but this can&#8217;t really be considered a betrayal.  He told us he was a supporter of big government, even to the point where the absence of government is an attack on the poor or an abandonment of the afflicted (&#8221;when people are hurting, the govt has to move&#8221;), back when he first ran.  He also told us he supported unassimilated immigration (&#8221;We are now one of the largest Spanish-speaking nations in the world&#8230;By nominating me, my party has made a choice to welcome the new America.&#8221;) well before he was elected.  The Bush supporters just didn&#8217;t want to face it until they absolutely had to; ie, when a bill was on the table and Bush was insulting them over it.  Many of them are ready to forgive him and move on if they can just get through this unpleasantness somehow.
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