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	<title>Comments on: WWI</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 16:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6697</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 10:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6697</guid>
					<description>Sure enough, Germany would support political movements it saw as subversive in Russia -- politically, the weakest link in the Entente. Even after Brest-Litovsk, from the early 1918 to the Armistice, Germany supported newly-formed governments in Ukraine and the Baltics. German troops left Ukraine in late 1918, leaving it to the mercy of Ukrainian nationalists and then Bolsheviks. In general, the German occupation of 1918 was remembered as benevolent in Ukraine, which would lead some Ukrainian Jews to falsely assume, twenty-three years later, that Germans were not to be feared. The German-backed Skoropadsky government was perhaps the most efficient in the history of Ukraine as an autonomous entity.

The story is much more complicated in the Baltics, but the bottom line is that German troups helped Latvia to repel the Red Army, tried to seize power in Latvia and Estonia, largely on behalf of the Batlic Germans, but were defeated, which later led to Baltic Germans losing their land holdings in those countries, in exchange for a modest compensation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure enough, Germany would support political movements it saw as subversive in Russia &#8212; politically, the weakest link in the Entente. Even after Brest-Litovsk, from the early 1918 to the Armistice, Germany supported newly-formed governments in Ukraine and the Baltics. German troops left Ukraine in late 1918, leaving it to the mercy of Ukrainian nationalists and then Bolsheviks. In general, the German occupation of 1918 was remembered as benevolent in Ukraine, which would lead some Ukrainian Jews to falsely assume, twenty-three years later, that Germans were not to be feared. The German-backed Skoropadsky government was perhaps the most efficient in the history of Ukraine as an autonomous entity.</p>
<p>The story is much more complicated in the Baltics, but the bottom line is that German troups helped Latvia to repel the Red Army, tried to seize power in Latvia and Estonia, largely on behalf of the Batlic Germans, but were defeated, which later led to Baltic Germans losing their land holdings in those countries, in exchange for a modest compensation.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6686</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 14:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6686</guid>
					<description>Unless I am mistaken, the Germans also promoted Batlic national independence movements and helped to back an independent Finland.  In fairness to these nations, they had already taken some of the initiative themselves, but for as long as Germany was in the war they provided troops to back these forces against communist forces (when those soldiers probably could have been put to better use almost anywhere else).  Of course, they backed all of these peoples to serve as buffers and satellites, but if "national liberation" and "self-determination" were supposedly the "vision" of the Allies by the end, the Germans had already outdone them while the war was still going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unless I am mistaken, the Germans also promoted Batlic national independence movements and helped to back an independent Finland.  In fairness to these nations, they had already taken some of the initiative themselves, but for as long as Germany was in the war they provided troops to back these forces against communist forces (when those soldiers probably could have been put to better use almost anywhere else).  Of course, they backed all of these peoples to serve as buffers and satellites, but if &#8220;national liberation&#8221; and &#8220;self-determination&#8221; were supposedly the &#8220;vision&#8221; of the Allies by the end, the Germans had already outdone them while the war was still going on.
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		<title>by: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6683</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 11:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6683</guid>
					<description>Daniel, the "young democratic" governments must have included the Central Rada in Ukraine, but what else?

From a different angle, if I were a military historian, I think I could come up with a credible ("one that better-known figures have promoted") theory justifying the march on Berlin in 1918. I would claim that the Prussian state, from its inception as a kingdom in the 18th century, had been prone to military expansion; draw a continuous line from Frederick the Great to Bismarck to Wilhelm II to Hitler; and explain how, as early as in the Seven-Year War, Russia intended to annex Eastern Prussia, a plan that only came to fruition in 1945, when Prussia's historical core was dismembered, and Brandenburg fell under Soviet control. To back this far-fetched continuity, I would stretch the line backward to Teutonic knights using the principality of Prussia as the outpost for expansion in the East Baltics. That would still be a rather dubious theory, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, the &#8220;young democratic&#8221; governments must have included the Central Rada in Ukraine, but what else?</p>
<p>From a different angle, if I were a military historian, I think I could come up with a credible (&#8221;one that better-known figures have promoted&#8221;) theory justifying the march on Berlin in 1918. I would claim that the Prussian state, from its inception as a kingdom in the 18th century, had been prone to military expansion; draw a continuous line from Frederick the Great to Bismarck to Wilhelm II to Hitler; and explain how, as early as in the Seven-Year War, Russia intended to annex Eastern Prussia, a plan that only came to fruition in 1945, when Prussia&#8217;s historical core was dismembered, and Brandenburg fell under Soviet control. To back this far-fetched continuity, I would stretch the line backward to Teutonic knights using the principality of Prussia as the outpost for expansion in the East Baltics. That would still be a rather dubious theory, of course.
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		<title>by: daninardmore</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6676</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 20:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6676</guid>
					<description>I guess it's just another example of how someone can be sound, even great, in one field, and a crackpot when he ventures afield. Certain scientists come to mind, such as Carl Sagan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it&#8217;s just another example of how someone can be sound, even great, in one field, and a crackpot when he ventures afield. Certain scientists come to mind, such as Carl Sagan.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6675</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6675</guid>
					<description>Here's the thing.  Whatever other classicists think of him personally, he has apparently done quality work in classical Greek history and I don't claim that he hasn't.  It's when he ventures out into any other period of history or contemporary policy debates that he goes from a reasonably careful thinker to, well, the VDH we all know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing.  Whatever other classicists think of him personally, he has apparently done quality work in classical Greek history and I don&#8217;t claim that he hasn&#8217;t.  It&#8217;s when he ventures out into any other period of history or contemporary policy debates that he goes from a reasonably careful thinker to, well, the VDH we all know.
</p>
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6674</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6674</guid>
					<description>I've always respected VDH. The "march on Berlin" thing gives me pause, though.

It seems exceptionally goofy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always respected VDH. The &#8220;march on Berlin&#8221; thing gives me pause, though.</p>
<p>It seems exceptionally goofy.
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		<title>by: daninardmore</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6673</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6673</guid>
					<description>I used to think that at least Hanson's credentials as a classics scholar were sound, but any more I have to wonder about that too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to think that at least Hanson&#8217;s credentials as a classics scholar were sound, but any more I have to wonder about that too.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6670</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 15:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6670</guid>
					<description>What I find amusing about the statements that I and others have quoted is that they come from an appeal to revive the study of military history, when it seems evident from this statement about WWI that Hanson not only wants people to learn military history, but he also wants them to learn false versions of it.  Hanson's main complaint here seems to be that the overwhelming consensus of WWI scholars do not endorse his preferences for skull-crushing ruthlessness as the proper counterfactual way to prevent WWII.

I didn't get into the "two visions" bit very much.  That was a big target.  As you say, it was simply a question of which alliance dominated Europe.  The old "autocracy v. democracy" nonsense that Entente governments started putting out and that Wilson promoted is not very credible as a description of the "visions" of the two sides.  The "visions" were antithetical only in the sense that each side wanted to win, which tended to conflict with the other side's desire to win, but they were otherwise not really very starkly opposed ideologically.  (This would be where I normally point out that Germany created multiple quisling, er, young democratic national governments liberated from the cruel yoke yadda yadda yadda, but that would be piling on.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find amusing about the statements that I and others have quoted is that they come from an appeal to revive the study of military history, when it seems evident from this statement about WWI that Hanson not only wants people to learn military history, but he also wants them to learn false versions of it.  Hanson&#8217;s main complaint here seems to be that the overwhelming consensus of WWI scholars do not endorse his preferences for skull-crushing ruthlessness as the proper counterfactual way to prevent WWII.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t get into the &#8220;two visions&#8221; bit very much.  That was a big target.  As you say, it was simply a question of which alliance dominated Europe.  The old &#8220;autocracy v. democracy&#8221; nonsense that Entente governments started putting out and that Wilson promoted is not very credible as a description of the &#8220;visions&#8221; of the two sides.  The &#8220;visions&#8221; were antithetical only in the sense that each side wanted to win, which tended to conflict with the other side&#8217;s desire to win, but they were otherwise not really very starkly opposed ideologically.  (This would be where I normally point out that Germany created multiple quisling, er, young democratic national governments liberated from the cruel yoke yadda yadda yadda, but that would be piling on.)
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		<title>by: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6668</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 08:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6668</guid>
					<description>It is amazing that a military historian should make claims so radical, as if WWI had been nothing but a milder version of WWII. This is pure revisionism: Hanson might as well be fishing for supporting arguments in Russian or British WWI propaganda. Likewise, his two "antithetical visions of Europe" is a laughable conceit: the warring parties' "visions" of post-war Europe differed primarily in the identity of the alliance that would dominate the continent.

Hanson ignores the fact that Germany was provoked into attacking France by Russia's mobilization, which threatened to (and eventually did) leave Germany fighting both in the West and the East. Hanson should also be able to recall how the French post-war plundering of the German lands to the West of the Rhine (and, in general, French intransigence and vindictiveness) both proved that the Entente had no moral edge over the enemy whatever, and implanted despair, resentment and a thirst for revenge into many Germans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is amazing that a military historian should make claims so radical, as if WWI had been nothing but a milder version of WWII. This is pure revisionism: Hanson might as well be fishing for supporting arguments in Russian or British WWI propaganda. Likewise, his two &#8220;antithetical visions of Europe&#8221; is a laughable conceit: the warring parties&#8217; &#8220;visions&#8221; of post-war Europe differed primarily in the identity of the alliance that would dominate the continent.</p>
<p>Hanson ignores the fact that Germany was provoked into attacking France by Russia&#8217;s mobilization, which threatened to (and eventually did) leave Germany fighting both in the West and the East. Hanson should also be able to recall how the French post-war plundering of the German lands to the West of the Rhine (and, in general, French intransigence and vindictiveness) both proved that the Entente had no moral edge over the enemy whatever, and implanted despair, resentment and a thirst for revenge into many Germans.
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6666</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 05:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/21/wwi/#comment-6666</guid>
					<description>I suppose Hanson thinks we should have Christianized them, too.

WWI was, as Robert Graves's title hasit, &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/Good-Bye-That-Autobiography-Robert-Graves/dp/1571810226/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2144664-9813608?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books&#38;qid=1179810255&#38;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Goodbye To All That&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, namely European civilization. It would have been better, all things considered, if the U.S. had stayed out, and Germany had won on points.

Bavaria the 49th state? I don't think so.

Of course, Daniel, we know you make these quotes up. Even Marty Peretz is a figment of your Byzantine mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose Hanson thinks we should have Christianized them, too.</p>
<p>WWI was, as Robert Graves&#8217;s title hasit, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Good-Bye-That-Autobiography-Robert-Graves/dp/1571810226/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2144664-9813608?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1179810255&amp;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow"><i>Goodbye To All That</i></a>, namely European civilization. It would have been better, all things considered, if the U.S. had stayed out, and Germany had won on points.</p>
<p>Bavaria the 49th state? I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
<p>Of course, Daniel, we know you make these quotes up. Even Marty Peretz is a figment of your Byzantine mind.
</p>
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