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	<title>Comments on: Embracing The Evils Of The &#8216;Good War&#8217;</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Christopher B. Hayes</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6428</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 19:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6428</guid>
					<description>Good call.  Kids need a Daddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call.  Kids need a Daddy.
</p>
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6424</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 15:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6424</guid>
					<description>Fatherhood keeps me grounded and going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fatherhood keeps me grounded and going.
</p>
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		<title>by: Christopher B. Hayes</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6421</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 14:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6421</guid>
					<description>I'll go back to Berry again - we love what we serve, so more service given to people and to the land would go a long way towards improving things.   Go spend a Saturday at a nursing home, working in a garden, or with a conservation crew fixing a hiking trail.  Pick up trash as you walk.  It's all about stewardship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll go back to Berry again - we love what we serve, so more service given to people and to the land would go a long way towards improving things.   Go spend a Saturday at a nursing home, working in a garden, or with a conservation crew fixing a hiking trail.  Pick up trash as you walk.  It&#8217;s all about stewardship.
</p>
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6412</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 01:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6412</guid>
					<description>I'm not against epidurals, or medical technology. No Luddite, I.

I could have said we professionalize burials (professional undertakers), or cooking (take-out, frozen dinners, fast-food, etc.).  

Not all these changes are bad.  I'm glad we have some degree of inspection of food, imaging techniques for the sick, and so on. We do, however, pay a price for all this in disconnection from things that are in some sense more "real" and from one another.

Would I give up clean running water, vaccination, and epidurals? No.  Would I like to see more community, less anonymity, and more connection to weather, soil, life and death? Yes.

Do I have any very good ideas on how to get there? Nope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not against epidurals, or medical technology. No Luddite, I.</p>
<p>I could have said we professionalize burials (professional undertakers), or cooking (take-out, frozen dinners, fast-food, etc.).  </p>
<p>Not all these changes are bad.  I&#8217;m glad we have some degree of inspection of food, imaging techniques for the sick, and so on. We do, however, pay a price for all this in disconnection from things that are in some sense more &#8220;real&#8221; and from one another.</p>
<p>Would I give up clean running water, vaccination, and epidurals? No.  Would I like to see more community, less anonymity, and more connection to weather, soil, life and death? Yes.</p>
<p>Do I have any very good ideas on how to get there? Nope.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kitty</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6411</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 01:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6411</guid>
					<description>1.  My favorite boss once said in a discussion of WWII on the 50th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing that just because we did something doesn't make it less of an atrocity.  He was not, by the way, arguing that the US was somehow uniquely evil for using The Bomb, but that the situation at the end of WWII was unique in history and therefore not really an example for any other time.  Unless, that is, we find ourselves again in a war with a front of several thousand miles, with a determined professional army backed by an advanced industrial nation led by a fanatically and very efficient and repressive oligarchy.  If that happens again, we can look to WWII.  So far it hasn't.  

2.  I have a rather small quibble with GOM's comment about childbearing.  All the professionalizing in the world can't really change the substance of the activity, it just makes it more pleasant.  Having had two sons, I really can't endorse any idea that would deprive pregnant women of epidurals.  Mr. Berry has a rather, er, rosy idea of the benefits of pain, which in my view can really only be advocated by those who rarely feel it.  Pain, in and of itself, is just that.  To the extent that pain appears to produce a spiritual benefit, it's due to the manner in which the sufferer reacts to it and demonstrates her virtues, not because she hurts.  If we make suffering by itself a good thing, then we'll have to canonize Stalin, since he provided so much of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.  My favorite boss once said in a discussion of WWII on the 50th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing that just because we did something doesn&#8217;t make it less of an atrocity.  He was not, by the way, arguing that the US was somehow uniquely evil for using The Bomb, but that the situation at the end of WWII was unique in history and therefore not really an example for any other time.  Unless, that is, we find ourselves again in a war with a front of several thousand miles, with a determined professional army backed by an advanced industrial nation led by a fanatically and very efficient and repressive oligarchy.  If that happens again, we can look to WWII.  So far it hasn&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>2.  I have a rather small quibble with GOM&#8217;s comment about childbearing.  All the professionalizing in the world can&#8217;t really change the substance of the activity, it just makes it more pleasant.  Having had two sons, I really can&#8217;t endorse any idea that would deprive pregnant women of epidurals.  Mr. Berry has a rather, er, rosy idea of the benefits of pain, which in my view can really only be advocated by those who rarely feel it.  Pain, in and of itself, is just that.  To the extent that pain appears to produce a spiritual benefit, it&#8217;s due to the manner in which the sufferer reacts to it and demonstrates her virtues, not because she hurts.  If we make suffering by itself a good thing, then we&#8217;ll have to canonize Stalin, since he provided so much of it.
</p>
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		<title>by: Christopher B. Hayes</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6400</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 17:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6400</guid>
					<description>Sounds like you've been blessed with the challenges (Manhattan and SoCal) you needed to get your thinking straight.  I design and print the papers others push, so I can't say too much, but I will say that most changes take time, and that more of us are headed to Emmaus than to Damascus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like you&#8217;ve been blessed with the challenges (Manhattan and SoCal) you needed to get your thinking straight.  I design and print the papers others push, so I can&#8217;t say too much, but I will say that most changes take time, and that more of us are headed to Emmaus than to Damascus.
</p>
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6394</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 15:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6394</guid>
					<description>Good comment, Christopher.

We are alienated from concrete tasks, having either professionalized them (childbirth) or relegated them to an underclass (gardening). This process is inconsistent with incarnational theology, and although technical progress is in some respects wonderful, unhealthy.

Wordswoth:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Getting and spendng, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in nature that is ours.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Thoreau:
&lt;blockquote&gt;We do not ride on the railroad; it rides on us.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I say this, of course, having been raised in Manhattan, dwelling in the midst of the Southern California conurbation and living now by pushing paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comment, Christopher.</p>
<p>We are alienated from concrete tasks, having either professionalized them (childbirth) or relegated them to an underclass (gardening). This process is inconsistent with incarnational theology, and although technical progress is in some respects wonderful, unhealthy.</p>
<p>Wordswoth:</p>
<blockquote><p>Getting and spendng, we lay waste our powers;<br />
Little we see in nature that is ours.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thoreau:</p>
<blockquote><p>We do not ride on the railroad; it rides on us.</p></blockquote>
<p>I say this, of course, having been raised in Manhattan, dwelling in the midst of the Southern California conurbation and living now by pushing paper.
</p>
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		<title>by: Christopher B. Hayes</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6393</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6393</guid>
					<description>Regarding the "divorce of many conservatives from the moral traditions of Christian civilization".  One of the great arguments of the atheists is that "faith based" is just another word for imaginary.  To the extent that religion has become a theoretical exercise, without practical application, they are correct.  As we have distanced ourselves from the daily care of anyone or anything, by relegating the necessary actions that sustain life and community to others and filling our time with abstracts (the pursuit of money, entertainment etc...), we have lost the empirical understanding of what Christ taught. 

If "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.", how would we qualify religion that abdicates the care of the fatherless and widows by paying our elected officials to do it for us.  And how much more damning that the time we have "saved" by such outsourcing is directed instead to sullying ourselves in "The World" with less meaningful pursuits.  

And the directly human aspect is just one area of the divorce from moral traditions.  Wendell Berry explains that our alienation from the land and physical processes that are necessary to sustain life.  In the "Unsettling of America", he writes "The willingness to abuse others bodies is the willingness to abuse one's own.  To damage the earth is to damage your children.  To despise the ground is to despise its fruit; to despise the fruit is to despise its eaters.  The wholeness of health is broken by despite".

So, in short, the agrarian tradition extends far beyond dirt and corn - it reflects the idea that truth is a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the &#8220;divorce of many conservatives from the moral traditions of Christian civilization&#8221;.  One of the great arguments of the atheists is that &#8220;faith based&#8221; is just another word for imaginary.  To the extent that religion has become a theoretical exercise, without practical application, they are correct.  As we have distanced ourselves from the daily care of anyone or anything, by relegating the necessary actions that sustain life and community to others and filling our time with abstracts (the pursuit of money, entertainment etc&#8230;), we have lost the empirical understanding of what Christ taught. </p>
<p>If &#8220;Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.&#8221;, how would we qualify religion that abdicates the care of the fatherless and widows by paying our elected officials to do it for us.  And how much more damning that the time we have &#8220;saved&#8221; by such outsourcing is directed instead to sullying ourselves in &#8220;The World&#8221; with less meaningful pursuits.  </p>
<p>And the directly human aspect is just one area of the divorce from moral traditions.  Wendell Berry explains that our alienation from the land and physical processes that are necessary to sustain life.  In the &#8220;Unsettling of America&#8221;, he writes &#8220;The willingness to abuse others bodies is the willingness to abuse one&#8217;s own.  To damage the earth is to damage your children.  To despise the ground is to despise its fruit; to despise the fruit is to despise its eaters.  The wholeness of health is broken by despite&#8221;.</p>
<p>So, in short, the agrarian tradition extends far beyond dirt and corn - it reflects the idea that truth is a whole.
</p>
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		<title>by: hisownfool</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6392</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 12:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/05/01/embracing-the-evils-of-the-good-war/#comment-6392</guid>
					<description>Very nicely put. What you write about the "total divorce of many conservatives from the moral traditions of Christian civilisation" is most evident to me in their embrace of consequentialism. The idea that we cannot do evil so that good may result strikes them as literally nonsense. They fancy themselves as Machiavellian "hard men," although I doubt that many of them have actually read "The Prince." 

Most of all, they have a nearly idolatrous view of the nation-state and its prerogatives and authority. I think that there is something to John Dean's argument that they have embraced an authoritarianism that sets them free from the burden of moral judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nicely put. What you write about the &#8220;total divorce of many conservatives from the moral traditions of Christian civilisation&#8221; is most evident to me in their embrace of consequentialism. The idea that we cannot do evil so that good may result strikes them as literally nonsense. They fancy themselves as Machiavellian &#8220;hard men,&#8221; although I doubt that many of them have actually read &#8220;The Prince.&#8221; </p>
<p>Most of all, they have a nearly idolatrous view of the nation-state and its prerogatives and authority. I think that there is something to John Dean&#8217;s argument that they have embraced an authoritarianism that sets them free from the burden of moral judgment.
</p>
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