Another tack seems to be to deemphasize material remains and cultural complexity, and suggest that the energies of the post-Roman Western world were funneled into Christianity. Ward-Perkins notes that encyclopedias of Late Antiquity are heavily tilted toward coverage of religious arguments, schisms and transformations, with relatively little space given to architecture, secular learning or politics. In other words, though Late Antiquity might be materially poorer than the Classical Imperial period, at least in the west, it was spiritually superior. Frankly, to me this is reminiscent of Communist era attempts to dismiss the consumer cornucopia of the capitalist world by suggesting that socialist man was spiritually richer if materially poorer. ~Razib
Ward-Perkins, like Liebeschuetz before him, is absolutely right to emphasise the archaeological and material evidence that shows undeniable economic contraction and the relative decline of Greco-Roman urbanism of the classical type. Indeed, no one working in late antiquity really denies any of these claims of fact, and every decent history of late antiquity in the Mediterranean world takes account of these changed material realities. Late antique historians certainly talk about architecture, for instance, at least as far as the Eastern Empire goes, since the modeling of church basilicas on secular halls and the magnificent achievement of Hagia Sophia are but two remarkable legacies of the late antique period. If there is a great deal of attention paid to religious arguments and schisms in late antique studies (in my opinion, there is not nearly enough attention actually paid to religious controversy and heaps and heaps of attention paid to hagiography), that is because there were quite a few of them happening with rather significant consequences for the development of different parts of the Mediterranean world. Each time you have someone sniff with Gibbonian disdain for religious contentions over an iota, you will wind up with five cultural historians who want to dedicate their lives to defending the importance of such contentions. Each time someone comes along and says, “But, look, people really were poorer! Things got worse!” the cultural historians will groan and say, “Yes, we understand. Now let’s talk about something really interesting.” These two approaches should not have to be at war with each other, since they are inherently complementary. Obviously, comparisons of late antique scholarship to commie propaganda in any context will not encourage this sort of happy collaboration.
Where the cultural and late antique historians part company with the late Romanists and archaeologists is in their evaluation of the worth of the period and its production, or rather the former believe that the period should receive the attention appropriate to a crucial period of transformation that contains answers for, among other things, how the medieval world came into being.
Late antiquity had to be invented as a separate period and basically as a new concept because generations of classicists had told everyone that once the glory of Rome had passed everything went to hell and wasn’t really worth talking about. Even traditional church history in the West used to stop at Chalcedon, as if the theologians were conceding that the fate of the empire and the fate of really interesting theology were inextricably linked.
Church historians obviously have a hard time going along with a full-on decline and fall view, since it quite explicitly devalues the epoch of the Church’s great early efflourescence. Tell them that the world of the 4th and 5th centuries are a “period of decline” and they will throw Chrysostom and Augustine back in your face, and they are right to do so. Cultural historians are horrified at the idea that a whole range of centuries, in which cultural production of various kinds (including Neoplatonic philosophical works, the work of the 4th and 5th century rhetoricians and the secular court poetry of, say, Corripus and George of Pisidia) remained fairly high but had changed form, should be put on the back burner because those centuries represent a relative worsening of material conditions compared to an earlier period. Imagine if early modernists took the same approach, ignoring the 17th century because life was so much more miserable and so much more full of religious controversy in many parts of Europe than in the 16th–how absurd would that be?
On the whole, late antique historians today try to avoid speaking in terms of either decline or superiority. This is a result of cultural history dominating late antique studies, and there are certain things to be said against arguments about transformation that are so vague that one might conclude that no one is paying that much attention to content, but one has to understand the tremendous prejudices and biases built in to the traditional narrative sweep of European history that late antique historians battle against all the time. They are compelled to speak in terms of transformation and change because so many people still think of the period as one of collapse and ruin. The old apologetic interest in the Age of Faith is not what it once was and there is also a reluctance among the scholars, most of whom are not necessarily particularly religious, to engage in a lot of Christian triumphalism. If anything, late antique studies of late have often been aimed at rehabilitating the religious deviants and heretics of the period to give a complete picture of the social fabric of that world. That actually seems to me to be a very worthwhile thing to be doing (it is also, in a way, the kind of thing I am doing, though with less heretic-rehabilitation and more focus on the meaning deviant theologies had for their adherents), and it does not require us to dismiss or ignore material evidence and the realities of straitened conditions that this evidence shows.
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April 18th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
razib
On the whole, late antique historians today try to avoid speaking in terms of either decline or superiority. This is a result of cultural history dominating late antique studies, and there are certain things to be said against arguments about transformation that are so vague that one might conclude that no one is paying that much attention to content, but one has to understand the tremendous prejudices and biases built in to the traditional narrative sweep of European history that late antique historians battle against all the time. They are compelled to speak in terms of transformation and change because so many people still think of the period as one of collapse and ruin.
first, ward-perkins endorses this correction.
second, he basically denies that byzantium (or what became byzantium) ever declined. rather, his focus re: decline & fall is upon the western roman empire. he acknowledges that decline & fall is totally inappropriate as a model for byzantium. or, at least the decline did not occur until the rise of islam before the renaissance of the 10th century.
third, he follows peter heather is denying that the 4th century was really one of decline or weakness. rather, he seems to focus on the 5th and 6th centuries, so some of your comments need to shift their timescale 100 years into the future.
fourth, unlike you (and like me) ward-perkins is a secularist, so his own lack of interest in church councils and the christianization of classical civilization seems obviously attenuated. norms do matter. but from the quotations (looking at the notes) it seems that he is fixated on a putatively areligious scholarly community that is motivated by a combination of post modernist tinged relativism as well as a germanic ethnically rooted apologia.
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April 18th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
razib
Imagine if early modernists took the same approach, ignoring the 17th century because life was so much more miserable and so much more full of religious controversy in many parts of Europe than in the 16th
the issue is of course quantitative, not qualitative. e.g., german exhibited a decline in material conditions during the first half of the 17th century for obvious geopolitical reasons. but other parts of europe were far less traumatized, and, what would the magnitude of any aggregate quantitative decline be across western christendom? ward-perkins makes the case, to my eye, that the quantitative decline in most of what was once the western empire in the production of materials was on the order of magnitudes (e.g., the disappearance of whole pottery forms, or decline to negligibility). on the other hand, multiplicative contractions below 10 are worth attention, but they might not be large enough to be termed a “break.”
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April 19th, 2007 at 7:31 am
cyrus
Pity that I’m at work, and all my books are at home, and GNXP is blocked by our nanny software.
Razib:
Ward-Perkins does endorse economic decline in Byzantium, but it comes later than than that in the western Empire. Obviously, the Gibbonesque model doesn’t apply, but his work does describe (from memory) a sixth and seventh century decline in the Byzantine economy coincident with plague and Arab invasion.
Also, it is my recollection from Braudel that the general European standard of living began declining in the 16th century, not the 17th. The great period of conflict, or of state formation, if one prefers, but definitely the one of general European immiseration, arguably stretches from 1494 to at least the Peace of Westphalia, a period marked by religious and political strife at every level, from civil wars in England and France, massive revolts in Spain and Germany, frequent coalition wars, Ottoman depredation, and rising taxes, inflation, and state coercion.
Finally, I can’t help but think that this:
is a bit of a cheap shot. Whatever your opinion of Christianity, surely it did not cause the contraction of the Roman world.
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April 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am
razib
Ward-Perkins does endorse economic decline in Byzantium, but it comes later than than that in the western Empire. Obviously, the Gibbonesque model doesn’t apply, but his work does describe (from memory) a sixth and seventh century decline in the Byzantine economy coincident with plague and Arab invasion.
yes, as i implied in my post. i should have made clear that he denies byzantium declined during his period of focus on the west (though it never fell).
is a bit of a cheap shot. Whatever your opinion of Christianity, surely it did not cause the contraction of the Roman world.
it would help if you read the whole post so that you could understand the context that i said that in. i’m not so stupid to make such causal connection anyhow. but thanks for allowing your fantasy telepathy to kick into high gear!
p.s., the fact that i have a book like A History of the Byzantine State and Society on my blogroll as ‘highly recommended,’ or that i did a Q & A with the should clue people in to the fact that i’m not anti-byzantine.
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April 19th, 2007 at 11:11 am
razib
Whatever your opinion of Christianity, surely it did not cause the contraction of the Roman world.
look. you need to read my post.
first, the post does not addresses the causes of decline at all. i am clear that that is not the brief of the book. second, i am not addressing christians in the least with my comment. my reference to the “proust of the papuans” makes clear who i’m talking about….
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April 19th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
cyrus
Well, as I wrote above, I hadn’t been able to read your post, because GNXP is blocked by my workplace. Having read it from home, I apologize for being touchy. It is clear that your critique is directed at the academy.
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April 19th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
cyrus
A part of the academy, that is.
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April 19th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
razib
because GNXP is blocked by my workplace.
do you know what filter they’re using? or is it specific?
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April 20th, 2007 at 6:56 am
cyrus
We use Websense. It’s blocked, as are Blogspot, Wordpress, etc., under the category “Message Boards and Clubs.”
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April 20th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Derek Copold
When you discuss material prosperity from earlier antiquity, who exactly benefited? It’s important to bear in mind that the great works of antiquity were built by slaves, who hardly enjoyed the benefits of these works. I know Razib is familiar with Rodney Stark’s work on the matter, and his arguments on the matter are worth taking into account.
the issue is of course quantitative, not qualitative. e.g., german exhibited a decline in material conditions during the first half of the 17th century for obvious geopolitical reasons. but other parts of europe were far less traumatized, and, what would the magnitude of any aggregate quantitative decline be across western christendom? ward-perkins makes the case, to my eye, that the quantitative decline in most of what was once the western empire in the production of materials was on the order of magnitudes (e.g., the disappearance of whole pottery forms, or decline to negligibility).
But all of western Europe was subject to tramatic geopolitical shifts just as large as what Germany during the 30-years-war: barbarian invasions, civil wars and plagues from from the previous centuries–much of which took place under pagan rule in the third century–had disastrously worn away the structure of the Roman system.
Now I’m aware of arguments from scholars like Michael Grant who say Christianity’s otherworldiness had a delterious effect as well, but looking at the system, which almost collapsed in the second century, it’s clear that it was heading for a fall, as happens to all empires. What’s remarkable about this situation is that, despite all the disasters that hit Western Europe, something very real was not only recovered, but added to within a couple centuries.
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April 21st, 2007 at 1:53 am
razib
When you discuss material prosperity from earlier antiquity, who exactly benefited? It’s important to bear in mind that the great works of antiquity were built by slaves, who hardly enjoyed the benefits of these works.
this is a valid point, but the work above makes the argument predicated on the middle order of society, not the elites. in any case, i haven’t seen estimates for slaves being more than 30% of the population in the roman empire. majorities do matter.
But all of western Europe was subject to tramatic geopolitical shifts just as large as what Germany during the 30-years-war: barbarian invasions, civil wars and plagues from from the previous centuries–much of which took place under pagan rule in the third century–had disastrously worn away the structure of the Roman system.
one point to note is that the author allude to above thinks that the bounce back from the 3rd century time of troubles was substantive. though nature of the roman state in the 4th century was different from the 2nd in many ways i think he would argue that its health was far, far, closer to that of the 2nd than the 5th (at least in the west). he explicitly follows peter heather in contending that the the decline began only later in the 4th century (with hadrianople being a watershed, though the real impact on the west was during the early years of honorius).
Now I’m aware of arguments from scholars like Michael Grant who say Christianity’s otherworldiness had a delterious effect as well, but looking at the system, which almost collapsed in the second century, it’s clear that it was heading for a fall, as happens to all empires. What’s remarkable about this situation is that, despite all the disasters that hit Western Europe, something very real was not only recovered, but added to within a couple centuries.,/i>
yes. though you might say more (e.g., i am not surprised that christianity pulled through because culture, especially organized religions, are often far more robust than political systems).
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April 21st, 2007 at 1:54 am
razib
i needed to close a tag.
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April 21st, 2007 at 7:26 pm
steve burton
Fascinating discussion.
At first glance, Razib’s thesis strikes me as odd - since most of the stuff I’ve come across that plays up the “religious arguments, schisms and transformations” of late antiquity seems intended to *ridicule*, and not to praise.
I guess I’m just not reading the right stuff.
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April 22nd, 2007 at 11:33 am
Jack
Daniel,
Would you mind suggesting a place to start for someone interesting in learning about Byzantium?
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April 23rd, 2007 at 7:02 am
Derek Copold
Frankly, to me this is reminiscent of Communist era attempts to dismiss the consumer cornucopia of the capitalist world by suggesting that socialist man was spiritually richer if materially poorer.
Something else to note, razib–which I wish I had thought of earlier–there is a huge difference between the Christian and Communist explanations. Unlike the Communists, the Christians never promised to bring about heaven on earth. In fact, they made plain that such a thing was impossible. They eschewed worldly things, which included huge the construction projects which punctuated the classical period. When they said they were living more spiritually fulfilling lives, they were achieving their goal, not taking consolation in some spurious afterthought.
Now you can disagree with the value of focusing on the next life, but I think we can agree that, on their own terms, the Christians were meeting their objectives.
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April 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 am
Grumpy Old Man
Hagia Sophia is hardly a small construction project . . .
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April 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 am
Derek Copold
The Hagia Sophia post-dated the period we’re discussing, I believe.
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April 23rd, 2007 at 11:12 am
Derek Copold
in any case, i haven’t seen estimates for slaves being more than 30% of the population in the roman empire. majorities do matter.
Well, 30% alone is a pretty big chunk of the population, even if it isn’t a majority. Also, consider the effect that a large slave class has on other areas of the economy. Why create labor-saving devices when you have a large pool of slaves to draw on? Think of the drag that illegal immigration is having on the modern, technological U.S. economy–where they’re about 7% of the population and enjoy some economic mobility–and compare that to the Classical World’s pre-medieval economy with a 30% slave labor component.
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April 23rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Grumpy Old Man
You’re probably right. I’ve read Gibbon, but not much else, especially about the Eastern Empire.