<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.0.4" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Words That Annoy Me</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Aethelred</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4386</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4386</guid>
					<description>Re Judeo-Christian -

I don't have access to an OED or similar reference to find an earliest usage cite, let alone how the usage may have evolved.  I strongly suspect that wide usage goes back well before 1970, though.  A couple of quick searches suggest that one possible originator was Nietzsche, but that the phrase really took off after WW2.  

I interpret the usage, stereotypically in the phrase "Judeo-Christian values", to imply (correctly or not) a community of values between Christians and modern Jews (in practice those Jews resident in majority Christian or historically majority Christian countries, or recently descended from same, e.g. Israelis).  In other words, assuming that one could meaningfully speak of "Christian values" and "Jewish values", then the intersection (those values in common) would be  "Judeo-Christian values", which, at least in the minds of the people using the phrase, are distinguishable from other value sets which may or may not be coherently definable ("Islamic values", "Asian values", "Enlightenment values", "Revolutionary values", ...).

At least often the intent of the phrase if used by a Christian is to be inclusive of Jews (for any of a variety of reasons), while when used by a Jew to attach whatever values claim that person is making to the value system of the [Christian] majority.

The phrase "Judeo-Christian civilization" implies a civilization in which both Jews and Christians participate, and by further implication in which those who are neither do not participate (at least in the same degree or way).  It's at least arguable that Western European civilization post Haskalah could be described that way (I'm not sure it's valid, but I don't think it's clearly invalid).

So, I think you [Daniel] are saying that one or more of the required referents are non-existent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Judeo-Christian -</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have access to an OED or similar reference to find an earliest usage cite, let alone how the usage may have evolved.  I strongly suspect that wide usage goes back well before 1970, though.  A couple of quick searches suggest that one possible originator was Nietzsche, but that the phrase really took off after WW2.  </p>
<p>I interpret the usage, stereotypically in the phrase &#8220;Judeo-Christian values&#8221;, to imply (correctly or not) a community of values between Christians and modern Jews (in practice those Jews resident in majority Christian or historically majority Christian countries, or recently descended from same, e.g. Israelis).  In other words, assuming that one could meaningfully speak of &#8220;Christian values&#8221; and &#8220;Jewish values&#8221;, then the intersection (those values in common) would be  &#8220;Judeo-Christian values&#8221;, which, at least in the minds of the people using the phrase, are distinguishable from other value sets which may or may not be coherently definable (&#8221;Islamic values&#8221;, &#8220;Asian values&#8221;, &#8220;Enlightenment values&#8221;, &#8220;Revolutionary values&#8221;, &#8230;).</p>
<p>At least often the intent of the phrase if used by a Christian is to be inclusive of Jews (for any of a variety of reasons), while when used by a Jew to attach whatever values claim that person is making to the value system of the [Christian] majority.</p>
<p>The phrase &#8220;Judeo-Christian civilization&#8221; implies a civilization in which both Jews and Christians participate, and by further implication in which those who are neither do not participate (at least in the same degree or way).  It&#8217;s at least arguable that Western European civilization post Haskalah could be described that way (I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s valid, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s clearly invalid).</p>
<p>So, I think you [Daniel] are saying that one or more of the required referents are non-existent?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Jim Kalb</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4382</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4382</guid>
					<description>The intended point was that God is utterly transcendent and so incomprehensible, but on the other hand we've got the Koran, which is the eternal and uncreated world of God. So the ultimate thing we have to go by, beyond which there is nothing to guide thought and action, is a text in a human language. Absolute truth to the exent it can matter to us therefore becomes a simple human possession much more than say in Christianity. The consequence is that a system of human force becomes much more plausible as a way of bringing the world into an order pleasing to God. As in fascism, a system of force can fully embody whatever it is that functions for us as ultimate--in the case of fascism, victorious force itself, in the case of Islam, the arbitrary commands of God that he has made known to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The intended point was that God is utterly transcendent and so incomprehensible, but on the other hand we&#8217;ve got the Koran, which is the eternal and uncreated world of God. So the ultimate thing we have to go by, beyond which there is nothing to guide thought and action, is a text in a human language. Absolute truth to the exent it can matter to us therefore becomes a simple human possession much more than say in Christianity. The consequence is that a system of human force becomes much more plausible as a way of bringing the world into an order pleasing to God. As in fascism, a system of force can fully embody whatever it is that functions for us as ultimate&#8211;in the case of fascism, victorious force itself, in the case of Islam, the arbitrary commands of God that he has made known to us.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: jsinger008</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4380</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4380</guid>
					<description>A couple of quick comments:

1) Regarding your objections to "Islamofascist", you make good points about the difference between Islam and fascism.  But it seems wrong to me to simply imply that Islam the religion is our problem (or the problem of the Islamic world).  Clearly there are millions of practicing Muslims who have reconciled themselves to the modern world, democracy, individual rights, etc.  I think that if we want to be more exact about our enemies, they are those Muslims who interpret Islam to mean they must destroy "the West"; or to be more specific, kill Westerners and/or destroy Western interests (like our investments in oil).  Perhaps the short-hand "radical Islamists" works better, as it implies those who want to use Islam to justify radical action.

2) Regarding your objections to "Judeo-Christian", I think you make even more good points but it seems like if Judeo-Christian is redundant (because Christian civilization properly includes the contributions of Jerusalem) then the term "Christian civilization" as a substitute for "Western civilization" seems to obscures the contributions of Jerusalem, Athens, not to mention the Enlightenment thinkers.  That's why I prefer Western civilization as the term to use when referring to what I think sustains and nurtures our great country.  But for someone like you, who is not a big fan of the Enlightenment (not sure what you think of Athens), I can see why "Christian civilization" would be preferable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of quick comments:</p>
<p>1) Regarding your objections to &#8220;Islamofascist&#8221;, you make good points about the difference between Islam and fascism.  But it seems wrong to me to simply imply that Islam the religion is our problem (or the problem of the Islamic world).  Clearly there are millions of practicing Muslims who have reconciled themselves to the modern world, democracy, individual rights, etc.  I think that if we want to be more exact about our enemies, they are those Muslims who interpret Islam to mean they must destroy &#8220;the West&#8221;; or to be more specific, kill Westerners and/or destroy Western interests (like our investments in oil).  Perhaps the short-hand &#8220;radical Islamists&#8221; works better, as it implies those who want to use Islam to justify radical action.</p>
<p>2) Regarding your objections to &#8220;Judeo-Christian&#8221;, I think you make even more good points but it seems like if Judeo-Christian is redundant (because Christian civilization properly includes the contributions of Jerusalem) then the term &#8220;Christian civilization&#8221; as a substitute for &#8220;Western civilization&#8221; seems to obscures the contributions of Jerusalem, Athens, not to mention the Enlightenment thinkers.  That&#8217;s why I prefer Western civilization as the term to use when referring to what I think sustains and nurtures our great country.  But for someone like you, who is not a big fan of the Enlightenment (not sure what you think of Athens), I can see why &#8220;Christian civilization&#8221; would be preferable.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4379</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4379</guid>
					<description>Thanks for your comments.  I'm glad we agree in general on the problems with the term.  However, I think I'm going to have to disagree here with your objection, or make a clarification.  The transcendence of the deity of Allah in Islam is such that it is far above anything any creature can ever obtain.  One of the principal forms of religious error in Islam is shirk, which is the error of associating anything with Allah--in this view, the way Christians believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit constitutes shirk, as would any belief in the transformation of saints into holy or deified people.  Transcendence is decidedly something in which men cannot participate in Islamic theology, at least not as I understand the terms that we're using here.  Perhaps we agree on this point, and I'm missing something else that you're saying.

Yes, I think people do use Judeo-Christian to avoid that label, as if just using the adjective of Christian to describe the religious and moral tradition of our civilisation were intended to denigrate or ignore the contribution of Israel to the story of salvation history and the cultural inheritance of Christendom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments.  I&#8217;m glad we agree in general on the problems with the term.  However, I think I&#8217;m going to have to disagree here with your objection, or make a clarification.  The transcendence of the deity of Allah in Islam is such that it is far above anything any creature can ever obtain.  One of the principal forms of religious error in Islam is shirk, which is the error of associating anything with Allah&#8211;in this view, the way Christians believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit constitutes shirk, as would any belief in the transformation of saints into holy or deified people.  Transcendence is decidedly something in which men cannot participate in Islamic theology, at least not as I understand the terms that we&#8217;re using here.  Perhaps we agree on this point, and I&#8217;m missing something else that you&#8217;re saying.</p>
<p>Yes, I think people do use Judeo-Christian to avoid that label, as if just using the adjective of Christian to describe the religious and moral tradition of our civilisation were intended to denigrate or ignore the contribution of Israel to the story of salvation history and the cultural inheritance of Christendom.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Jim Kalb</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4378</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/08/10/words-that-annoy-me/#comment-4378</guid>
					<description>A resemblance between fascism and Islam is that both make transcendence or its equivalent a human possession that can be put into effect by force. In the case of fascism there isn't a transcendent, there's just force and will, so successful violence becomes the transcendent. In the case of Islam the uncreated word of God is an Arabic text, and God is otherwise too unknowable to have much practical relevance,  so transcendent reality to the extent it can tell us anything is something we have right in front of us and can just read off and force on everybody. I agree though that "Islamofascist" is stupid. There are just too many differences.

On "Judaeo-Christian"--don't people use it because they want to say "Christian civilization" or some such but are afraid of being called antisemitic if they do? Serious Jews though find the expression somewhat imperialistic I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A resemblance between fascism and Islam is that both make transcendence or its equivalent a human possession that can be put into effect by force. In the case of fascism there isn&#8217;t a transcendent, there&#8217;s just force and will, so successful violence becomes the transcendent. In the case of Islam the uncreated word of God is an Arabic text, and God is otherwise too unknowable to have much practical relevance,  so transcendent reality to the extent it can tell us anything is something we have right in front of us and can just read off and force on everybody. I agree though that &#8220;Islamofascist&#8221; is stupid. There are just too many differences.</p>
<p>On &#8220;Judaeo-Christian&#8221;&#8211;don&#8217;t people use it because they want to say &#8220;Christian civilization&#8221; or some such but are afraid of being called antisemitic if they do? Serious Jews though find the expression somewhat imperialistic I think.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
